So who's fault was it for Working Designs demise?

Wolfpup

Wolfpup

CAGiversary!
What do you guys think of all that? Victor Ireland has always acted...well I guess you could say a bit unprofessionally. I'm not complaining! I love that he speaks his mind, I love what he did, it's just not a "normal" way to run a business. If Sony responded to that in any way but professionally, then they're even worse (it's just ridiculous for a company to be goaded in any way like that-far more unprofessional than a fun creative type being wacky).

And Sony...were they really to blame? I mean Vic slammed Sega before Sony (though that isn't to say that with management changes both companies were bad). Why was Sony blocking Working Designs games? What exactly ARE Sony's policies for what games they approve? Why wouldn't they approve something like Gomen? Why do they require compilations for some games? I can sort of see for games on older platforms, but those Growlancer games were PS2 games, right?

I heard Sony blocked SNK's games unless they came in double packs too?

I've long thought Working Designs games weren't as remarkable as they used to be back on the Saturn and before. I've thought it was for two reasons. We're already getting most (or at least a lot more) of the good games here in the states than we used to. And secondly, RPG translations have skyrocketed in quality-probably in large part as a response to Working Designs.

I'm sad to see them go, and wonder what Gaijinworks is doing. I *HATE* that name beyond belief, but a good game is a good game. (Come to think of it "Spaz" was a terrible name too...someone else needs to pick his companies names :D )
 
On a side note, I was disapointed Working Designs couldn't/didn't handle the Mother games. They would have sold well, the translation I'm sure would have been ridiculously fun, and it seems like a win/win. But I'm not sure Nintendo would ever allow anything like that (no matter how much sense it makes), and I doubt Working Designs could handle cartrige costs.

Anyway I REALLY miss WD. They were one of my gaming joys, at least up through the Saturn. I couldn't wait to get their newest game in my hands.
 
I'm plodding along on Lunar 2 in PS1 right now (whenever I get a chance..which hasn't been much recently). I really miss this company. They went the extra mile to make some remarkable products, and I appreciate the effort they made that the great majority of publishers never even aspire towards.
 
As good as hardcore gamers thought WD releases were, the games they chose to bring out over here were very niche products. Most publishers release a mix of smaller niche games, and big selling franchises. WD only put out the niche stuff.

They also spent alot of time and money getting their releases ready to ship. And to try and make up for it, they all came in special edition $80 boxsets.

How many WD special edition games did you reserve at your local gamestore, or buy direct from WD website on launch? Thats why they went under.

Being a cag doesnt help small publishers out at all.
 
[quote name='Puffa469']As good as hardcore gamers thought WD releases were, the games they chose to bring out over here were very niche products. Most publishers release a mix of smaller niche games, and big selling franchises. WD only put out the niche stuff.[/QUOTE]
This business model certainly hasn't harmed Atlus at all.

Of course, Atlus has a vastly quicker turnaround on titles, whereas you can probably count on two hands the number of WD titles from the past decade (and still be able to pick your nose). The pricepoint of WD titles also differs vastly, so it's not a perfect comparison. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel that Atlus succeeded by honing the business model begun by WD.
 
I think you nailed it right there. Atlus puts out way more titles, and they are not such perfectionists about the translation, documentation, extras, etc.

Its clear to me that the WD guys were hardcore gamers that loved the games they were publishing. But maybe having a bunch of hardcore gamers who are uncompromising when it comes to quality issues isnt the best way to keep a small business afloat.

And we should all cross out figners for Atlus' continued success. Because it wouldnt surprise me one bit if they announced tomorrow that they were closing up shop.


[quote name='mykevermin']This business model certainly hasn't harmed Atlus at all.

Of course, Atlus has a vastly quicker turnaround on titles, whereas you can probably count on two hands the number of WD titles from the past decade (and still be able to pick your nose). The pricepoint of WD titles also differs vastly, so it's not a perfect comparison. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel that Atlus succeeded by honing the business model begun by WD.[/quote]
 
[quote name='Puffa469']As good as hardcore gamers thought WD releases were, the games they chose to bring out over here were very niche products. Most publishers release a mix of smaller niche games, and big selling franchises. WD only put out the niche stuff.[/quote]

They didn't have a choice on that though. And other companies have been successful doing that-as were they for over a decade. Supposedly Sony really screwed them over with Growlancer and Gomen (SP?).

And to try and make up for it, they all came in special edition $80 boxsets.
Click to expand...

Not the vast majority of their games. Just the last three or so (and Growlancer they had to charge more since Sony forced them to release two games as one game).

How many WD special edition games did you reserve at your local gamestore, or buy direct from WD website on launch? Thats why they went under.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean. I bought almost every Working Designs game, though started getting pickier on the Playstation 1 and 2, as I didn't like everything (didn't like Alundra, don't like the Lunar remakes as much, etc.)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']This business model certainly hasn't harmed Atlus at all.

Of course, Atlus has a vastly quicker turnaround on titles, whereas you can probably count on two hands the number of WD titles from the past decade (and still be able to pick your nose). The pricepoint of WD titles also differs vastly, so it's not a perfect comparison. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel that Atlus succeeded by honing the business model begun by WD.[/QUOTE]

That's what I've felt too, but they're a poor substitute IMO.

Also isn't Atlus just a wing of a large publisher in Japan?

It seems like a guy who worked for Working Designs works for them now though (the guy who handled a large part of the Dragon Force translation, amongst other things).
 
ah working designs....

all that remains of them is the last of their E3 swag:

313529363_75f6f83f4a.jpg


314421257_59574ea2b7.jpg
 
Sure, they did things that hurt them as a company, but Sony didnt exactly make it any easier for them. Gamespot has an article or two on the matter.

I imagine they wouldve put out more games over the PS2 generation if they hadnt been tied up with Goemon so much, which Vic was pressing for, almost pathologically.

For some reason he was never fond of the GBA. I vaguely remember him commenting very negatively about it early on in its life cycle. Even later with its total dominance of the handheld market he never had anything good to say about it.

I just want to know what happened to Kathy Emma(sometimes credited as Kathy Ostrander), who I believe is the person who sang for the WD games that required it.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I just want to know what happened to Kathy Emma(sometimes credited as Kathy Ostrander), who I believe is the person who sang for the WD games that required it.[/quote]

Is this the woman that sang the songs in Lunar? Her voice is hauntingly beautiful.
 
[quote name='Puffa469']Is this the woman that sang the songs in Lunar? Her voice is hauntingly beautiful.[/quote]
If I have the right name, yes. She also did the singing in Growlanser and a few other of their games, as well as some voice acting.
 
I hated their translations, and how they felt the need to put jokes in there that are now very dated (i.e all the Bill Clinton stuff in Lunar... 2, I think).

WD came off as a company that thought they were hilarious but I could have lived without their brand of hilarity in my RPG's. I'm not big on "let's make cultural reference jokes that look stupid years later".
 
Here's an interview with Vic from December 2005. Most I kind find about anything:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6141225.html?q=working designs

I just don't get why Sony treated them like that. I mean apparently Sega used to be good, swapped a lot of management with Sony (who was good then), and something must have happened along the way for this to happen.

I know what he means about the PS2 versus the PS1. There's lots of good stuff on the PS2, but somehow it doesn't seem like as much original stuff.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']I hated their translations, and how they felt the need to put jokes in there that are now very dated (i.e all the Bill Clinton stuff in Lunar... 2, I think).

WD came off as a company that thought they were hilarious but I could have lived without their brand of hilarity in my RPG's. I'm not big on "let's make cultural reference jokes that look stupid years later".[/QUOTE]
I have to agree. I much prefer Atlus's closer translations, while still making a good flowing script. That's not to say I didn't chuckle at some of those WD lines, but it wasn't necessary.

With publishers like Atlus, XSEED and NIS America I'm not going to miss WD all THAT much. Also WD sometimes had some really bad choices in what they decided to localize. No one wanted Vanguard Bandits...
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I have to agree. I much prefer Atlus's closer translations, while still making a good flowing script. That's not to say I didn't chuckle at some of those WD lines, but it wasn't necessary.

With publishers like Atlus, XSEED and NIS America I'm not going to miss WD all THAT much. Also WD sometimes had some really bad choices in what they decided to localize. No one wanted Vanguard Bandits...[/quote]Uh, Vanguard Bandits was an awesome game. And I love these people who bitch about WD's translations. Guess what, I don't think many other publishers were clamoring to put out Lunar and Lunar 2, so you're lucky you got the games in English to begin with.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']Didn't you like From the New World? Yeah, you would like Vanguard Bandits.[/quote]So, what is that supposed to mean? Yes, I do like RPG's with battle systems that aren't "Press X, Press X, Press X, and watch your characters fight" or the FFXII style of glorified auto-battles. Vanguard Bandits was one of the best strategy RPG's on the PSOne.
 
[quote name='VanillaGorilla']Uh, Vanguard Bandits was an awesome game. And I love these people who bitch about WD's translations. Guess what, I don't think many other publishers were clamoring to put out Lunar and Lunar 2, so you're lucky you got the games in English to begin with.[/QUOTE]

Not the point; the point was made in a "if you guys would quit fucking off and get back to work, perhaps you'd still be in business" way.

No two ways about it, the translations (1) held up the release of the product significantly and (2) dated the product very quickly. There are no positives to be had from handling the translations the way WD did.
 
There are a lot of reasons for their demise, but I think promises versus reality sum it up very well. From a GameSpot article on Gaijinworks, dated 7/26/06:

>Ireland told GameSpot that he should have "some game-related news" this summer, with the site going live in the late summer or early fall. <

And guess what? No news, and no live web site (beyond their logo), as of today. Vic has always done an excellent job of communicating with his company's fans, but it ultimately became a double-edged sword as titles and release dates were announced and then delayed again and again, sometimes over the course of *years*. Most of their fans will tolerate these waits for a higher-quality product, but we've reached a point where they're no longer the only game in town for the niche market they helped to foster.

What's worse is that it looks like these habits will continue: If they can't even get the web site up and running on time, then what's the point in even making an announcement about it? Keep quiet for a bit, get your ducks lined up, and then let us know what you're doing once your actual product is closer to reality.

I feel bad for the way Sony ultimately treated them, but I also think that their business model at the end was extremely flawed. After Growlanser, they knew how difficult Sony could be about games that they considered "dated", yet they continued to work on a localized version of a 4-year old, first-generation PS2 title, while apparently not lining up any other products. I'm sure their games on the PS2 sold a lot better than similar titles would have done on the GC or XB, but their fans would have followed them to any platform, so they still would have made a profit.

By the way, I did love their work back in the day and own complete collections of their Sega-CD and Saturn releases (plus most of their PS1 work). Back then they were slow to get product to market, but not as slow (RayEarth aside), and most importantly, what they did was unique. (I think another problem was inspiring other companies to go their route and then not having the manpower/resources to compete with them) I felt bad for their demise, but realize that they themselves were at least partially responsible. I'm looking forward to seeing what Gaijinworks has to offer, but I'm still wishing they'd learned more from their past endeavors.
 
I blame Activision and the Alundra II dispute. I mean how did they get the rights to the game and my other question who did the voice overs?

Also WD never really made a game on ther own. All they really did was just translate games. That is as useful as Translating PSO and Sonic Adventure.

[quote name='JEKKI']ah working designs....
[/QUOTE]

I have that doll also and a Growwhatever blow-up pillow.
 
[quote name='TheOneGod']I blame Activision and the Alundra II dispute. I mean how did they get the rights to the game and my other question who did the voice overs?[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think WD ever expressed any interest in bringing over Alundra 2. And with good reason: The game was fucking terrible! It was a sequel in name only with absolutely no ties to the original title and was handled by a completely different programming team. It's similar to the reason why they never expressed interest in localizing Magic School Lunar for the Saturn (though that one wasn't anywhere near as bad, just not on-par with the other Lunar titles).
 
[quote name='VanillaGorilla']Uh, Vanguard Bandits was an awesome game. And I love these people who bitch about WD's translations. Guess what, I don't think many other publishers were clamoring to put out Lunar and Lunar 2, so you're lucky you got the games in English to begin with.[/QUOTE]
also people have to remember they only change the lines for NPC that otherwise have nothing intersting to say. For the main characters their lines are well translated.
 
Maybe they should have localized games more quickly? I mean, how long can it take? I know they rewrite much of the games, and the games they usually released were text heavy, but it seems like any business person would know they had to get products out the door more quickly.
 
[quote name='Puffa469']Jekki,

are those plushies inside your refridgerator???[/QUOTE]hell naw yo~

dat is A PLUSHIE (no plural) in my FREEZER.

I gotta keep dat shit fresh an crisp like sum new super mario kicks.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I have to agree. I much prefer Atlus's closer translations, while still making a good flowing script. That's not to say I didn't chuckle at some of those WD lines, but it wasn't necessary.

With publishers like Atlus, XSEED and NIS America I'm not going to miss WD all THAT much. Also WD sometimes had some really bad choices in what they decided to localize. No one wanted Vanguard Bandits...[/QUOTE]

Agreed too.. it seems while WD was fucking around with Growlanser and Goemon, people like Mastiff, Atlus, and Agetec started stepping up and doing a quicker and better job localizing the types of games WD usually would have gotten.

Then you move onto Atlus and NIS localizing almost everything themselves, with XSEED picking up the leftovers, and there is no place for WD in today's world.
 
Sony and Vic Ireland. Sony for dictating what games were "appropriate" for the American market, and Vic Ireland for sticking to his principles and not doing what was best for his business.

That Langrisser boxset he wanted to do for PS1 would've been great, if Sony would've let him.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']Agreed too.. it seems while WD was fucking around with Growlanser and Goemon, people like Mastiff, Atlus, and Agetec started stepping up and doing a quicker and better job localizing the types of games WD usually would have gotten.

Then you move onto Atlus and NIS localizing almost everything themselves, with XSEED picking up the leftovers, and there is no place for WD in today's world.[/QUOTE]
well Mastiff and Agetec did horrible job with their recent localization. The censorship in La Prucell and Agetec cut out all the voice acting in Wild Arms Alter Code F. Alter Code F was also delayed for over a year. You know with Vic he would at least keep the original voice acting.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']I have to agree. I much prefer Atlus's closer translations, while still making a good flowing script. That's not to say I didn't chuckle at some of those WD lines, but it wasn't necessary.

With publishers like Atlus, XSEED and NIS America I'm not going to miss WD all THAT much. Also WD sometimes had some really bad choices in what they decided to localize. No one wanted Vanguard Bandits...[/QUOTE]

Ugh. I couldn't make it through Vanguard Bandits, and felt guilty about that.
That ties in to what I said before-I think more of the great games were already being brought out over here, and they didn't have the same kind of choice of gems that get left in Japan. Ironically I think they're at least partially responsible for that situation, as they made Japanese RPGs more popular, and increased the quality of translations in all games, etc.

Personally I'd rather have a good story, whether it has anything to do with the original script or not. Most Japanese RPGs just have inane plots IMO, and I'd rather they just toss them if it's dreck. Working Designs never did that, but they did have some really hilarious stuff in their earlier games-I remember an entire town of hicks in the first Lunar that was just histerical. I *HATE* having to talk to "townspeople" in RPGs. Insanely boring because they NEVER have anything worth hearing, and just get in the way of gameplay (and story) but you're still stuck talking to them in case it triggers an event. But Working Designs used to actually make it worth reading :D

Unfortunately with the way Sony dominated the market, I guess they didn't have much alternative. Though if Nintendo would have treated them better, maybe there were Gamecube games that didn't make it? I'm not really sure. I guess all they could have done is figure out which system to bail too, like they had to with Sega.

It's not fair to say they should have done what was best for their business and chosen different titles-because that IS their business. They picked the stuff they thought would sell, that they could get, and Sony arbitrarily acted like a complete ass.

I don't know why Sony would do that-it only hurts them. Working Designs was always a big reason I'd own a particular platform, and I'm sure I'm not alone. What does Sony care if they've got a small but dedicated fanbase buying games on their platform? I don't get it.
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']
I don't know why Sony would do that-it only hurts them. Working Designs was always a big reason I'd own a particular platform, and I'm sure I'm not alone. What does Sony care if they've got a small but dedicated fanbase buying games on their platform? I don't get it.[/QUOTE]

Because that fanbase dosen't always buy their games... Growlanser rotted on the shelves. That's just taking shelf space away from something that could actually sell.

WD was never smart and limited its games like Atlus used to do.
 
[quote name='62t']well Mastiff and Agetec did horrible job with their recent localization. The censorship in La Prucell and Agetec cut out all the voice acting in Wild Arms Alter Code F. Alter Code F was also delayed for over a year. You know with Vic he would at least keep the original voice acting.[/QUOTE]

The point is alot of companies were stepping up into WD's domain, where it used to just be WD.

They would have died out anyways, because they took too long to localize a game, and Atlus localizes almost everything themselves these days, and other companies pick up the slack.

Metal Saga would be the type of game you'd expect WD to do, but Atlus has it all on lockdown. And I'm grateful for that.

Plus, Victor Ireland, imo, is a huge asshole with a big mouth, and frequently burns bridges whle he's still on them. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he pissed someone off at Sony so that's why he got hit with the delay on Growlanser, because Sony brought out lots of 2-D games in the meantime.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']The point is alot of companies were stepping up into WD's domain, where it used to just be WD.

They would have died out anyways, because they took too long to localize a game, and Atlus localizes almost everything themselves these days, and other companies pick up the slack.

Metal Saga would be the type of game you'd expect WD to do, but Atlus has it all on lockdown. And I'm grateful for that.

Plus, Victor Ireland, imo, is a huge asshole with a big mouth, and frequently burns bridges whle he's still on them. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he pissed someone off at Sony so that's why he got hit with the delay on Growlanser, because Sony brought out lots of 2-D games in the meantime.[/QUOTE]

I agree that Working Designs dug their own grave with the time it took them to translate something. I mean, yeah, they had incredible extras, but the average consumer isn't going to want to pay $80 for a game. Even if it's something that's so 1337 AZN that your head explodes. I also think that WD had a dearth of games that were actually good... they didn't have a single decent offering on the Playstation 2 (unless I'm mistaken on Growlanser) and when they had as few games released as they did... yeah, it doesn't work.
 
This is all WD got out on the PS2... it's quite a shitty list:

- Gungriffon Blaze
- Slipheed: The Lost Planet
- Growlanser Generations

For the entire PS2 generation, that's it... three games. They relied way too much on Goemon, which would have just tanked if they released it here anyways.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']This is all WD got out on the PS2... it's quite a shitty list:

- Gungriffon Blaze
- Slipheed: The Lost Planet
- Growlanser Generations

For the entire PS2 generation, that's it... three games. They relied way too much on Goemon, which would have just tanked if they released it here anyways.[/QUOTE]

Yep, that's what I thought it was. There's no way they could've survived as a legitimate business. They were cool back in the day when they released niche titles that fans wanted, but they really fell off course. While not a bad game like those, Arc the Lad Collection prolly didn't help either since it was released in... what? 2002 or 2003? Waaay too late for anyone outside of hardcore fans to care.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']This is all WD got out on the PS2... it's quite a shitty list:

- Gungriffon Blaze
- Slipheed: The Lost Planet
- Growlanser Generations

For the entire PS2 generation, that's it... three games. They relied way too much on Goemon, which would have just tanked if they released it here anyways.[/QUOTE]
4 games really if sony hasnt force them to bundle it, 5 if Goemon got release. WD has been interst in Namco RPGs like Seven and Tales of Destiny 2 so it is not like there is nothing left for them if they stay in business.
 
When it really comes down to the painful facts, WD was a badly run business in a field that is very unforgiving of mistakes. To make a viable business out of niche game localizations, the operation has to be very efficient and resist going too far to please the tiny fanbase at the cost of reaching the larger audience.

Much of WD's products should have carried budget prices rather than premium prices, so as to attract interest from people willing to take a chance if the cost is lower than average. The hardcore audience willing to pay full or premium price for these games was just not adequate for the cost of production.

Early on, it was thought that this would be as simple as small companies that acquired anime series and released them in the West with English soundtracks. But doing this for games is far more complex and costly. Especially since few of these games had this as a design consideration going in. Games developed with a future Western language version(s) intended have a lot less code wanking required later for the adjustment. WD inevitably took on the games with the most hassles for localization. This could add months of delays and tens of thousands of dollars in programmer effort. A major sum for such projects.

One big advantage for Atlus is that they try to acquired rights to titles before they are completed and released in Japan. This gives them some input with the developers to ease the process.
 
WD was a small fish in a big pond. They couldn't raise the money to bring over and distribute the stuff that would sell. Plus thier fallout with sega hurt thier reputation. Pluse the ultimate mistake catering only to the hardcore market. Maybe if they just did translations and localizations for the bigger publishers instead of trying to do it all they could have made it.
 
[quote name='Roufuss']I hated their translations, and how they felt the need to put jokes in there that are now very dated (i.e all the Bill Clinton stuff in Lunar... 2, I think).[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Either reference 'eternal' things or don't reference something at all. Or make the references obscure and not obvious unless you're familiar with it, such as "Well excuuuuuse me, princess" in Phoenix Wright 2.
 
[quote name='62t']well Mastiff and Agetec did horrible job with their recent localization. The censorship in La Prucell and Agetec cut out all the voice acting in Wild Arms Alter Code F. Alter Code F was also delayed for over a year. You know with Vic he would at least keep the original voice acting.[/QUOTE]

Well, the censorship in La Pucelle didn't really matter. Crosses and cigarettes were removed, but the plot was still faithful. Besides, I don't blame them- controversy is the last thing a smaller publisher needs.

Croig taking a whiff of his non-existant cigarette was a bit weird, though.
 
I've been thinking about it, and it's totally bogus to claim Sony blocked them because it would prevent other games from getting on shelves. That's not how it works.

Companies still have to sell their games to stores, and a WHOLE lot of games get very limited runs, and don't show up at most stores at all.

So I'm back to the...well I'll state it now...

Sony acted imaturly at best. They had no reason to block WD, and better sales and good will from at least a vocal minority of gamers if they hadn't.

I'd LOVE an explanation from Sony. They owe us that.
 
[quote name='Wolfpup']I've been thinking about it, and it's totally bogus to claim Sony blocked them because it would prevent other games from getting on shelves. That's not how it works.

Companies still have to sell their games to stores, and a WHOLE lot of games get very limited runs, and don't show up at most stores at all.

So I'm back to the...well I'll state it now...

Sony acted imaturly at best. They had no reason to block WD, and better sales and good will from at least a vocal minority of gamers if they hadn't.

I'd LOVE an explanation from Sony. They owe us that.[/QUOTE]

They aren't going to say anything you'll enjoy hearing.

The simple fact is that the platform is Sony's manage as they see fit. If a third party doesn't like it, they can gather up their toys and go elsewhere. When the games in question have an audience measured in the mere tens of thousands, and often less, it's just going to be a big "Buh-bye" from Sony while they focus on products that pull in an audience measured by the hundreds of thousands or millions.

Do they play favorites among the niche titles? You betcha. Whether you like it or not, there is only so much room in the retail channel at any given time. That many titles have limited reach is just a reflection of that. The product managers at Sony have to exercise their judgement on niche items. Will this be at least a prestige gain for the platform or is it just another bit of Japanese generica that the mainstream audience completely ignores. The best niche titles are those which raise the profile of the platform among those who necessarily buy the game. Working Designs steadfastly avoided such games, going instead with very traditional material that had already failed to attract a major audience in North America many times over in the last two decades.

We create an echo chamber in these forums that creates the false belief that these games are far more in demand than they really are. The Psychonauts on Xbox 360 outcry was a perfect example. People were shaking their tiny fists and demanding that Microsoft make this game a critical priority for the BC developers. Yet the game was an utter turkey at retail. After four years and a ridiculous sum of money the game did less business than any of the almost daily MegaMan GBA releases.

Psychonauts merited no special effort whatsoever but to read the forums you'd think it was the one standing between the Xbox 360 and total market domination.
 
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