2009 MLB Discussion Thread
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[quote name='TheRock88']Same here.
You're telling me you just won the MVP award in 03 and now you're just gonna stop using it?
[/QUOTE]
Didn't the random testing with penalties start shortly there after? Or was at least in the works?
That could be enough to get him (and other stars) to quit using since before there was no testing or anonymous testing with no penalties.
Not really defending him as I've never liked the guy, but I'd suspect that many people quit using when testing started--but I don't recall when testing started.
You're telling me you just won the MVP award in 03 and now you're just gonna stop using it?
[/QUOTE]Didn't the random testing with penalties start shortly there after? Or was at least in the works?
That could be enough to get him (and other stars) to quit using since before there was no testing or anonymous testing with no penalties.
Not really defending him as I've never liked the guy, but I'd suspect that many people quit using when testing started--but I don't recall when testing started.
depascal22
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First of all, one season at third place doesn't kill my argument that Manny doesn't play for winners.
You guys also neglect to mention that Manny has been the best hitter on every single one of those teams. Please don't put Travis Fryman on any list of great hitters because it makes you look retarded. He was an average player at best and got lucky with a great team. I realize it's part of the point you're trying to make but my point is that Manny has been the best hitter on EVERY team he's ever been on. Thome was/is a slugger. Baerga wasn't on the 97 team that won the AL. Colon was a rookie and went 4-7 on that same team.
Also, not once did I ever say DLowe was an ace. All I said earlier was that with Penny and Lowe gone, they should sign Manny so that the mediocre pitching staff will have a chance to win some games.
You guys also forget that it takes a great player or two to win a title. They have Martin, Loney, Ethier, and Kemp. They have the solid guys. They need a superstar to push them over the hump.
As for Manny being Manny. He didn't like that he was being disrespected by Boston. If you're one of the best right handed hitters of all time and helped bring Boston two titles, should you have to wait for a new contract?
You guys also neglect to mention that Manny has been the best hitter on every single one of those teams. Please don't put Travis Fryman on any list of great hitters because it makes you look retarded. He was an average player at best and got lucky with a great team. I realize it's part of the point you're trying to make but my point is that Manny has been the best hitter on EVERY team he's ever been on. Thome was/is a slugger. Baerga wasn't on the 97 team that won the AL. Colon was a rookie and went 4-7 on that same team.
Also, not once did I ever say DLowe was an ace. All I said earlier was that with Penny and Lowe gone, they should sign Manny so that the mediocre pitching staff will have a chance to win some games.
You guys also forget that it takes a great player or two to win a title. They have Martin, Loney, Ethier, and Kemp. They have the solid guys. They need a superstar to push them over the hump.
As for Manny being Manny. He didn't like that he was being disrespected by Boston. If you're one of the best right handed hitters of all time and helped bring Boston two titles, should you have to wait for a new contract?
[quote name='ryanbph']good for him for being open about it. I don't believe that he used only from 01 -03 though.[/QUOTE]
Neither do I, he likely stopped taking anabolic steroids and moved on to things that aren't detectable.
Another issue that is recently coming up is the use of Ritalin and Adderall as amphetamines. The number of players claiming exceptions for ADHD have more than tripled, and is 8 times higher than the regular population.
[quote name='depascal22']As for Manny being Manny. He didn't like that he was being disrespected by Boston. If you're one of the best right handed hitters of all time and helped bring Boston two titles, should you have to wait for a new contract?[/QUOTE]
If the team has the contractual option to do so then yes. He shot his way out of town, burned his bridges, and for what? He'll be lucky just to match the two option years that the Sox would've likely picked up had he not done that. Manny isn't signed right now because he quit on his team, and if it suits him he'll quit on his next team too.
Neither do I, he likely stopped taking anabolic steroids and moved on to things that aren't detectable.
Another issue that is recently coming up is the use of Ritalin and Adderall as amphetamines. The number of players claiming exceptions for ADHD have more than tripled, and is 8 times higher than the regular population.
[quote name='depascal22']As for Manny being Manny. He didn't like that he was being disrespected by Boston. If you're one of the best right handed hitters of all time and helped bring Boston two titles, should you have to wait for a new contract?[/QUOTE]
If the team has the contractual option to do so then yes. He shot his way out of town, burned his bridges, and for what? He'll be lucky just to match the two option years that the Sox would've likely picked up had he not done that. Manny isn't signed right now because he quit on his team, and if it suits him he'll quit on his next team too.
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='ryanbph']good for him for being open about it. I don't believe that he used only from 01 -03 though.[/quote]
See, I just feel like they're baiting him with crap like this. Just like they did with Clemens and Pettitte. They throw out one year to see if the player will admit to that. Then when he issues a statement saying "I admit it...I used in..." they toss out another piece of info saying they used more recently than that. Watch, now we'll hear A-Rod tested positive as recent as 2005. I still don't know what all of this is supposed to accomplish...but have at it, I guess.
See, I just feel like they're baiting him with crap like this. Just like they did with Clemens and Pettitte. They throw out one year to see if the player will admit to that. Then when he issues a statement saying "I admit it...I used in..." they toss out another piece of info saying they used more recently than that. Watch, now we'll hear A-Rod tested positive as recent as 2005. I still don't know what all of this is supposed to accomplish...but have at it, I guess.
depascal22
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It's going to show the public that everyone has and will use steroids to get a competitive advantage. Kids will start using in middle school just to hope to get big enough to play in the bigs one day.....At least that's what the gov't says.
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='dafoomie']Another issue that is recently coming up is the use of Ritalin and Adderall as amphetamines. The number of players claiming exceptions for ADHD have more than tripled, and is 8 times higher than the regular population.[/quote]
Amazingly...I think that same statistic applies to CAGs as well
Amazingly...I think that same statistic applies to CAGs as well
[quote name='depascal22']First of all, one season at third place doesn't kill my argument that Manny doesn't play for winners.
You guys also neglect to mention that Manny has been the best hitter on every single one of those teams. Please don't put Travis Fryman on any list of great hitters because it makes you look retarded. He was an average player at best and got lucky with a great team. I realize it's part of the point you're trying to make but my point is that Manny has been the best hitter on EVERY team he's ever been on. Thome was/is a slugger. Baerga wasn't on the 97 team that won the AL. Colon was a rookie and went 4-7 on that same team.
Also, not once did I ever say DLowe was an ace. All I said earlier was that with Penny and Lowe gone, they should sign Manny so that the mediocre pitching staff will have a chance to win some games.
You guys also forget that it takes a great player or two to win a title. They have Martin, Loney, Ethier, and Kemp. They have the solid guys. They need a superstar to push them over the hump.
As for Manny being Manny. He didn't like that he was being disrespected by Boston. If you're one of the best right handed hitters of all time and helped bring Boston two titles, should you have to wait for a new contract?[/QUOTE]
First off you claimed his team have never finished below 2nd, which was false. IMO coming in 2nd place and having your team between 10 and 15 games out of first place means jack shit to me. If you come in 2nd and only win 82 games, you are not a guy that bring winning to your club(ie either 2001 or 2002 season with the redsox.).
2nd I never said all those players where great. I said they had some stud seasons. When fryman was with the Indians while manny was there, he hit .321 with 22 homers, and .296 with 28 homers during 2 of the three seasons he played with manny. I didn't even include matt Williams in the list. I also never said 1997 as the season to qualify anything. Yes colon was horrible that year but he was solid in 98 - 00. As for the best batter on the teams, I am sure some would debate that both matt Williams or jimthome had better seasons. I guess it would depend on what you count as more important and thome was a hitter back then not a slugger. He had solid power,ba,obp and RBI #'s earlier in his career. It wasn't untill later his ba dropped a lot. The 04 sox it was debatable he was the best hitter on the team and in 07 it wasn't even close, it was ortiz.
As for being disrespected by boston, really. The fans loved him not matter what he did. He signed the contract that gave the club 2 options years. And I am sorry when you are being paid 20mil a season you have no right to bitch about not being treated with respect. If the sox had picked up the options. He still would have been one of the best paid players.
You guys also neglect to mention that Manny has been the best hitter on every single one of those teams. Please don't put Travis Fryman on any list of great hitters because it makes you look retarded. He was an average player at best and got lucky with a great team. I realize it's part of the point you're trying to make but my point is that Manny has been the best hitter on EVERY team he's ever been on. Thome was/is a slugger. Baerga wasn't on the 97 team that won the AL. Colon was a rookie and went 4-7 on that same team.
Also, not once did I ever say DLowe was an ace. All I said earlier was that with Penny and Lowe gone, they should sign Manny so that the mediocre pitching staff will have a chance to win some games.
You guys also forget that it takes a great player or two to win a title. They have Martin, Loney, Ethier, and Kemp. They have the solid guys. They need a superstar to push them over the hump.
As for Manny being Manny. He didn't like that he was being disrespected by Boston. If you're one of the best right handed hitters of all time and helped bring Boston two titles, should you have to wait for a new contract?[/QUOTE]
First off you claimed his team have never finished below 2nd, which was false. IMO coming in 2nd place and having your team between 10 and 15 games out of first place means jack shit to me. If you come in 2nd and only win 82 games, you are not a guy that bring winning to your club(ie either 2001 or 2002 season with the redsox.).
2nd I never said all those players where great. I said they had some stud seasons. When fryman was with the Indians while manny was there, he hit .321 with 22 homers, and .296 with 28 homers during 2 of the three seasons he played with manny. I didn't even include matt Williams in the list. I also never said 1997 as the season to qualify anything. Yes colon was horrible that year but he was solid in 98 - 00. As for the best batter on the teams, I am sure some would debate that both matt Williams or jimthome had better seasons. I guess it would depend on what you count as more important and thome was a hitter back then not a slugger. He had solid power,ba,obp and RBI #'s earlier in his career. It wasn't untill later his ba dropped a lot. The 04 sox it was debatable he was the best hitter on the team and in 07 it wasn't even close, it was ortiz.
As for being disrespected by boston, really. The fans loved him not matter what he did. He signed the contract that gave the club 2 options years. And I am sorry when you are being paid 20mil a season you have no right to bitch about not being treated with respect. If the sox had picked up the options. He still would have been one of the best paid players.
[quote name='ryanbph']good for him for being open about it. I don't believe that he used only from 01 -03 though.[/QUOTE]
that is a bunch of bs.. "I made a mistake." Sorry doesn't cut it. He only admitted it after he was found to be using. If he really cared he would have came out and said something before this ever would have happened. "I'm sorry for letting fans down... but I'm not sorry for juicing up to make a ton more money and destroying baseball salaries." He doesn't admit to 01-03.. he just said that sounded accurate.. which gives him a about a 2yr give on either side. I'm sorry but this sickens me.
that is a bunch of bs.. "I made a mistake." Sorry doesn't cut it. He only admitted it after he was found to be using. If he really cared he would have came out and said something before this ever would have happened. "I'm sorry for letting fans down... but I'm not sorry for juicing up to make a ton more money and destroying baseball salaries." He doesn't admit to 01-03.. he just said that sounded accurate.. which gives him a about a 2yr give on either side. I'm sorry but this sickens me.
depascal22
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I'm sorry Matt Williams in his prime with the Giants might have been close to Manny but not the Matt we saw in the late 90s. He did have six more homers but hit .263 to Manny's .328 in '97.
Yes, I claimed that Manny never finished below second. One third place finish doesn't completely blow off the argument that Manny plays for winners. That third place club still finished ten games above .500. What's the best an Adam Dunn led squad ever achieved?
Your argument is that it's better to sign a couple of mid level players instead of one superstar. I'm just saying I'd rather have the guy that has always been a winner and has a .314 career batting average over a stiff that just slugs.
Also, I should rephrase. The Red Sox organization disrespected Manny and maybe he disrespected them. The fans have never been anything but nice to Manny.
Also, I'd still rather have "Manny being Manny" over an injured Jermaine Dye or an immobile Adam Dunn. Xavier Nady is the only outfielder I'd consider in Manny's place because he has the potential to be much better for a long period of time. I just hope the stench of the Pirates organization hasn't become permanent.
Yes, I claimed that Manny never finished below second. One third place finish doesn't completely blow off the argument that Manny plays for winners. That third place club still finished ten games above .500. What's the best an Adam Dunn led squad ever achieved?
Your argument is that it's better to sign a couple of mid level players instead of one superstar. I'm just saying I'd rather have the guy that has always been a winner and has a .314 career batting average over a stiff that just slugs.
Also, I should rephrase. The Red Sox organization disrespected Manny and maybe he disrespected them. The fans have never been anything but nice to Manny.
Also, I'd still rather have "Manny being Manny" over an injured Jermaine Dye or an immobile Adam Dunn. Xavier Nady is the only outfielder I'd consider in Manny's place because he has the potential to be much better for a long period of time. I just hope the stench of the Pirates organization hasn't become permanent.
depascal22
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I'd offer Manny a two year deal at $30 million with maybe a club option. It's alot better than the crap deal they gave to Andruw Jones.
They aren't midlevel players though, there are all star players available. No they aren't manny, but they will improve the club the dodgers had pre manny last season. It isn't that I wouldn't want a bat like that on my team (completly ignoring his defense and personality) I just think the dodgers have gone above and beyond what the manny market and free agent market is currently at.
lionheart4life
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[quote name='depascal22']It's going to show the public that everyone has and will use steroids to get a competitive advantage. Kids will start using in middle school just to hope to get big enough to play in the bigs one day.....At least that's what the gov't says.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about middle schools but high school and college athletes are already juicing. Even non-athletes but people that just want to look big are taking some form of steroids or have tried them, it really is pretty sickening. And I'm not really talking about Div. I colleges, but smaller Division III schools the athletes are juicing like crazy because they don't test them at all.
I don't know about middle schools but high school and college athletes are already juicing. Even non-athletes but people that just want to look big are taking some form of steroids or have tried them, it really is pretty sickening. And I'm not really talking about Div. I colleges, but smaller Division III schools the athletes are juicing like crazy because they don't test them at all.
Ikohn4ever
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maybe I am just naive, but I really believe/hope that the star players on the Phils dont juice, and I would be pretty upset if they did. I really don't see someone like Utley or Hamels using steroids, but I guess I could be wrong. It would def leave a sour taste in my mouth. So I can only imagine if I was a fan of Arod right now how pissed I would be.
are you talking 30 mill total for 2 years, cause if that is the case manny has already turned down better offers.
I grad hs in 94, and there where already kids on my teams taking steroids and/or stimulants. I went to a small division 1aa college and there where a ton of kids juicing, even non athletes
I grad hs in 94, and there where already kids on my teams taking steroids and/or stimulants. I went to a small division 1aa college and there where a ton of kids juicing, even non athletes
depascal22
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I meant 35 million. He's probably turned down better but that's what he's worth and he'll take it when spring training comes closer.
depascal22
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Ryan Howard probably does.
Ikohn4ever
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[quote name='ryanbph']Jc romero already been busted. It is funny you didn't mention Howard. It is also funny how right canseco was[/quote]
well JC is a fluke case, cause everyone said the stuff he was taking passed before he took it. Then something changed and they never let him know. Well Howard, is the most likely candidate, but just because it looks obvious doesnt make it so. I mean he has always been huge, so I don't see it likely, but I suppose its possible.
well JC is a fluke case, cause everyone said the stuff he was taking passed before he took it. Then something changed and they never let him know. Well Howard, is the most likely candidate, but just because it looks obvious doesnt make it so. I mean he has always been huge, so I don't see it likely, but I suppose its possible.
n8rockerasu
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Yeah, I think anybody casting stones at A-Rod while turning a blind eye to their own team is just enjoying the world through their rose colored glasses (was that enough cliches for ya? haha). Seriously though, I'm tired of the demands for player punishment in all this. If we're going to punish anyone...let's punish Bud Selig. Let's punish the agents. Let's punish the President of the MLBPA.
The ONLY thing that needs to come out of this "steroid era" is a legitimate testing system. In my opinion, the younger guys coming up now are beyond suspicion because they were rookies in a time when at least SOME kind of testing was being done. In the late 80s/early 90s, it was probably a free-for-all in regards to access to PEDs. As a fan, I just want the game cleaned up. I don't care about Bonds. I don't care about Clemens. I don't care about A-Rod. If they're doing undetectable stuff, then you just have to keep improving the tests. And if they can always stay one step ahead, well...then tip your cap. Who's to say that doesn't happen in every aspect of life?
Yes, it's terrible that these guys chose to cheat...but at the same time, Selig and company made it so easy for them to do so. I think there's plenty of blame to go around. But at the end of the day, you need to right the ship. The testing has been improved, and until we see a report of A-Rod being tipped off to a test in 2007 or 2008, or see reports of top players failing tests during that time period, I'm inclined to believe that it's working.
I still don't think reports of things that happened 6 years ago are ANY indication of what's going on now. All we've learned is more names during a time when we already knew several players were doing steroids. Is there any way to make up for that period of time? Or is the more important issue making sure that any of these players who are still active aren't juicing now? To me, that is the important issue...and that's the only thing I think can be corrected in this mess. The rest is just a really screwed up period of time that I don't think you can make up for. Fix the game...move on. Period.
The ONLY thing that needs to come out of this "steroid era" is a legitimate testing system. In my opinion, the younger guys coming up now are beyond suspicion because they were rookies in a time when at least SOME kind of testing was being done. In the late 80s/early 90s, it was probably a free-for-all in regards to access to PEDs. As a fan, I just want the game cleaned up. I don't care about Bonds. I don't care about Clemens. I don't care about A-Rod. If they're doing undetectable stuff, then you just have to keep improving the tests. And if they can always stay one step ahead, well...then tip your cap. Who's to say that doesn't happen in every aspect of life?
Yes, it's terrible that these guys chose to cheat...but at the same time, Selig and company made it so easy for them to do so. I think there's plenty of blame to go around. But at the end of the day, you need to right the ship. The testing has been improved, and until we see a report of A-Rod being tipped off to a test in 2007 or 2008, or see reports of top players failing tests during that time period, I'm inclined to believe that it's working.
I still don't think reports of things that happened 6 years ago are ANY indication of what's going on now. All we've learned is more names during a time when we already knew several players were doing steroids. Is there any way to make up for that period of time? Or is the more important issue making sure that any of these players who are still active aren't juicing now? To me, that is the important issue...and that's the only thing I think can be corrected in this mess. The rest is just a really screwed up period of time that I don't think you can make up for. Fix the game...move on. Period.
I don't if body type can determine anything. Palmerio had a similiar body type, and arod was lean compared to bonds. Clemans also had a similiar body type to Howard. I am not saying that he does, but that I don't believe body type matters.
As for jc, he got busted twice. He has perfect excuses each time, but if you are putting something into your own body one should know what the
it is. Just because it got added to the banned substances doesn't mean it was right.
As for jc, he got busted twice. He has perfect excuses each time, but if you are putting something into your own body one should know what the
it is. Just because it got added to the banned substances doesn't mean it was right.
n8rockerasu
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HA! And here's a wonderful article on Yahoo about how all this information on A-Rod's failed test was illegally obtained.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=li-arodlegal020909&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
So, let me make sure I understand this correctly. We're supposed to be angry at A-Rod for cheating, based on tests that were supposed to offer immunity, the results of which were obtained illegally...? Well, that just sums up our great society doesn't it...
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=li-arodlegal020909&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
So, let me make sure I understand this correctly. We're supposed to be angry at A-Rod for cheating, based on tests that were supposed to offer immunity, the results of which were obtained illegally...? Well, that just sums up our great society doesn't it...
There was no immunity, it was during a time that there where no penalties in place.
It is the media fault, that are the ones that believe you have to get and distribute all info. Society doesn't give 2 shits about arod cheating. On espn it was pretty close to a third for each of the options. Very upset, mildly and not at all.
It is the media fault, that are the ones that believe you have to get and distribute all info. Society doesn't give 2 shits about arod cheating. On espn it was pretty close to a third for each of the options. Very upset, mildly and not at all.
[quote name='ryanbph']
As for jc, he got busted twice. He has perfect excuses each time, but if you are putting something into your own body one should know what the it is. Just because it got added to the banned substances doesn't mean it was right.[/QUOTE]
Do you know what's in your Big Mac and Coke you just had for lunch today? Do you know what kind of stuff is in chinese food? How about all the yellow 5s and ginseng. No one looks at every label for everything they put in their body. I'm not condoning what these guys do, but can you honestly say you look at every single label of ingredients in everything you eat or drink? How about that allergy medicine youre taking? I'm sure your doctor knows whats in it, so you dont die from it, but do you REALLY know whats in it? I highly doubt it.
As for jc, he got busted twice. He has perfect excuses each time, but if you are putting something into your own body one should know what the
it is. Just because it got added to the banned substances doesn't mean it was right.[/QUOTE]Do you know what's in your Big Mac and Coke you just had for lunch today? Do you know what kind of stuff is in chinese food? How about all the yellow 5s and ginseng. No one looks at every label for everything they put in their body. I'm not condoning what these guys do, but can you honestly say you look at every single label of ingredients in everything you eat or drink? How about that allergy medicine youre taking? I'm sure your doctor knows whats in it, so you dont die from it, but do you REALLY know whats in it? I highly doubt it.
[quote name='lt_homer']Do you know what's in your Big Mac and Coke you just had for lunch today? Do you know what kind of stuff is in chinese food? How about all the yellow 5s and ginseng. No one looks at every label for everything they put in their body. I'm not condoning what these guys do, but can you honestly say you look at every single label of ingredients in everything you eat or drink? How about that allergy medicine youre taking? I'm sure your doctor knows whats in it, so you dont die from it, but do you REALLY know whats in it? I highly doubt it.[/QUOTE]
I also don't get tested at work for performance drugs so I don't need to look that closely. His first offense I can buy the excuse. It was to help get his wife pregnant and they did have a kid shortly after. But the 2nd offense it was because of something he took for his physical training. You already been busted once, I would think I would want to be ontop of that shit if it was going to effect my livelyhood. Also if u look at his stats from the years he was caught and the other years it does look suspicious. He either is lying or the unluckiest mofo in MLB.
Btw I am a diabetic, so yes I look at labels but I get your point. As I said before if you where caught once I think one would be on the ball with what is going into his body.
I also don't get tested at work for performance drugs so I don't need to look that closely. His first offense I can buy the excuse. It was to help get his wife pregnant and they did have a kid shortly after. But the 2nd offense it was because of something he took for his physical training. You already been busted once, I would think I would want to be ontop of that shit if it was going to effect my livelyhood. Also if u look at his stats from the years he was caught and the other years it does look suspicious. He either is lying or the unluckiest mofo in MLB.
Btw I am a diabetic, so yes I look at labels but I get your point. As I said before if you where caught once I think one would be on the ball with what is going into his body.
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='ryanbph']There was no immunity, it was during a time that there where no penalties in place.
It is the media fault, that are the ones that believe you have to get and distribute all info. Society doesn't give 2 shits about arod cheating. On espn it was pretty close to a third for each of the options. Very upset, mildly and not at all.[/quote]
The results of the tests were never supposed to see the light of day and no punishment was to be doled out. If that's not immunity, I don't know what is.
My point about society was just highlighting what we have here...someone breaking the law to prove that someone else was breaking the law. Is that not the pot calling the kettle black? Does the media not see this?
It is the media fault, that are the ones that believe you have to get and distribute all info. Society doesn't give 2 shits about arod cheating. On espn it was pretty close to a third for each of the options. Very upset, mildly and not at all.[/quote]
The results of the tests were never supposed to see the light of day and no punishment was to be doled out. If that's not immunity, I don't know what is.
My point about society was just highlighting what we have here...someone breaking the law to prove that someone else was breaking the law. Is that not the pot calling the kettle black? Does the media not see this?
look.. A-Rod was the sole reason players' salaries went nuts back in 01.. He got a ton of money.. and everyone's free agency salaries were based off that.. that makes me angry. #1 - he played the system to make more money. #2 - he made free agency so unaffordable to small market teams. I hate that people are forgiving him. He wouldn't have apologized if he wasn't caught.
I don't forgive him, I just don't care if players use steroids or not. I think a to of players used something. Yes the salaries went up, but manny was also signed that offseason to really big numbers. I can't blame the player for taking a shitload of money. Who wouldn't? The only people to blame are the owners. It isn't like Texas is historically a big spending team. Blame the owners for not telling the union to pissoff. Let them strike and let them strike for an entire season. I have no problem with installing a cap/floor. IMO it won't make a difference for some teams. Poor management is still going to be poor management with a cap. Take for example some of my local sport teams. The celtics where run horibbly under cap rules. Ainge took over a mess and had to wait several years before he could do anything with the celtics. Then there is bellicheck and the patriots. Since 01 they have been a very successful teams the majority of the time. He let's go stars at the right time, they are always positioned with plenty of cap space for the current and planned ahead for future seasons.
because of people like you who don't care or cast a blind eye, baseball will never be fixed.. and it needs to be... big time.. the NFL is now America's sport.. it's no longer baseball.. and it's because of steroids, not because the NFL doesn't use them, but at least they publicly test and suspend who is caught, and because of the economics, this sport will die. It needs someone to step up.. not a puppet like Bud Selig or Donald Fehr..
integralsmatic
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i have to agree with DJSteel on this one. I want my players clean but MLB and the MLBPA always cast a huge shadow over the issue and never really make it an issue in their own right. If the sport is going to show kids or future players that juicing isnt right..than they have to suck it up and spend the money to find HGH. Its kinda stupid if HGH is a banned substance but you cant test for it. Which to me sounds like a huge loophole...like if i smoke pot but if atleast i do it behind the scenes im ok because there is no way they can catch me. also if these guys do keep juicing they will seriously be messed up later in their lives. they better enjoy the juice now beause later it will be shrinking balls and saggy tits for them.
As for A-rod and salaries, Yeah he did screw things up with that 250 million dollar contract. I thought 100 was astronomical but a quarter of a billion dollars...yeah im sure Texas spends alot but now the spending ceiling was risen high above what small market teams could afford. Smaller teams could afford an adam dunn or an Ollie Perez...but now...they have trouble getting Randy Wolf. i have never seen so many 100+ million dollar contracts in my life. Its quite sickening and there is a difference. Its like the same way in the English Premier League except that they have no lux tax. The top 4 teams finish in the top 4 every year(except this year) it was Liverpool,Arsenal,Chelsa,and Manchester United,. They had rich owners and they bought the best players. While teams like Aston Villa(who are in 4th right now),Portsmouth,Tottenham,Bolton,West Ham...etc are all small to mid market teams who barely can afford top notch talent because these players keep raising the ceiling on spending.which in turn they finish bottom to mid on the table. Sure you can build a team from top to bottom..but if you keep losing talent that you cant afford..your stuck. Atleast Tampa and Minnesota kept its talent to develop well but Pittsburgh and other organizations lose talent because they want to leave for greener pastures. Its going to happen with McLouth and Doumit. They will both bounce and get paid huge dollars because the pirates can't compete with the bigger clubs.
A-Prick-.....i dont buy it one bit. He is taking the same road as Andy Pettite and Jason Giambi.i mean did he use the same excuse as bonds and said he didnt know what he was taking? i didnt see it but that what my boss told me. If thats the case. what a joke. Steel is also right that if he wasnt caught he would have never apologized. But Yeah MLB needs to be fixed and return to being the wholesome sport that it once was. In the past 8 years all of the sports icons have fallen from grace...from sammy sosa now to Arod. Bud Selig needs to stop drinking some MGD and needs get off his ass and actually punish the bigger names and needs to get a way to test HGH or any other anabolic. I love baseball and will love it forever but can the MLB get any more bad press. Im waiting for the rest of the list to pop out.
As for A-rod and salaries, Yeah he did screw things up with that 250 million dollar contract. I thought 100 was astronomical but a quarter of a billion dollars...yeah im sure Texas spends alot but now the spending ceiling was risen high above what small market teams could afford. Smaller teams could afford an adam dunn or an Ollie Perez...but now...they have trouble getting Randy Wolf. i have never seen so many 100+ million dollar contracts in my life. Its quite sickening and there is a difference. Its like the same way in the English Premier League except that they have no lux tax. The top 4 teams finish in the top 4 every year(except this year) it was Liverpool,Arsenal,Chelsa,and Manchester United,. They had rich owners and they bought the best players. While teams like Aston Villa(who are in 4th right now),Portsmouth,Tottenham,Bolton,West Ham...etc are all small to mid market teams who barely can afford top notch talent because these players keep raising the ceiling on spending.which in turn they finish bottom to mid on the table. Sure you can build a team from top to bottom..but if you keep losing talent that you cant afford..your stuck. Atleast Tampa and Minnesota kept its talent to develop well but Pittsburgh and other organizations lose talent because they want to leave for greener pastures. Its going to happen with McLouth and Doumit. They will both bounce and get paid huge dollars because the pirates can't compete with the bigger clubs.
A-Prick-.....i dont buy it one bit. He is taking the same road as Andy Pettite and Jason Giambi.i mean did he use the same excuse as bonds and said he didnt know what he was taking? i didnt see it but that what my boss told me. If thats the case. what a joke. Steel is also right that if he wasnt caught he would have never apologized. But Yeah MLB needs to be fixed and return to being the wholesome sport that it once was. In the past 8 years all of the sports icons have fallen from grace...from sammy sosa now to Arod. Bud Selig needs to stop drinking some MGD and needs get off his ass and actually punish the bigger names and needs to get a way to test HGH or any other anabolic. I love baseball and will love it forever but can the MLB get any more bad press. Im waiting for the rest of the list to pop out.
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='DJSteel']because of people like you who don't care or cast a blind eye, baseball will never be fixed.. and it needs to be... big time.. the NFL is now America's sport.. it's no longer baseball.. and it's because of steroids, not because the NFL doesn't use them, but at least they publicly test and suspend who is caught, and because of the economics, this sport will die. It needs someone to step up.. not a puppet like Bud Selig or Donald Fehr..[/quote]
Yes...because the NFL never has any controversy...
You talk like you've got your head up your ass. Clearly you know nothing about baseball or free agency in general. If your main reason for hating A-Rod is because of his huge contract...blame his agent. And as ryanbph said, hate the owners. I'm still baffled as to why the Rangers of all teams signed Alex to that deal. They ARE NOT a big market team.
It had to be a matter of simply coveting the best player (which he still is...I haven't seen a failed steroid test from 2007. Have you?), and going to any lengths to have him on their team. Hating somebody for taking money that was OFFERED to them is pure jealousy. If somebody is dumb enough to give it to you, you're sure as hell not going to say "no". If you deny that, you're a liar.
Your other point you keep whining about is him not apologizing until he got caught? Tell me, who the apologizes for something when nobody else knows about it? How does this make him any different from any other human being in the history of mankind.
Even that point is irrelevant because he's constantly playing to the media. I doubt he's made one statement that was his own. It's all PR. That's just the way the business works. Do you think our politicians and world leaders are any different? Smile, nod, and get away with as much as you can. That's the world we live in.
Yes...because the NFL never has any controversy...
You talk like you've got your head up your ass. Clearly you know nothing about baseball or free agency in general. If your main reason for hating A-Rod is because of his huge contract...blame his agent. And as ryanbph said, hate the owners. I'm still baffled as to why the Rangers of all teams signed Alex to that deal. They ARE NOT a big market team.
It had to be a matter of simply coveting the best player (which he still is...I haven't seen a failed steroid test from 2007. Have you?), and going to any lengths to have him on their team. Hating somebody for taking money that was OFFERED to them is pure jealousy. If somebody is dumb enough to give it to you, you're sure as hell not going to say "no". If you deny that, you're a liar.
Your other point you keep whining about is him not apologizing until he got caught? Tell me, who the
apologizes for something when nobody else knows about it? How does this make him any different from any other human being in the history of mankind. Even that point is irrelevant because he's constantly playing to the media. I doubt he's made one statement that was his own. It's all PR. That's just the way the business works. Do you think our politicians and world leaders are any different? Smile, nod, and get away with as much as you can. That's the world we live in.
the NFL has been America sport for a long time. Look at the ratings if the world series over the past 15 years. Most americains don't care about baseball due to the ocerwhelming majority of the games being long boring affairs. I love it, but you have to be blind to see why people are turning away from it.
I don't turn a blind eye I just don't give a shit about it and based off espns poll neither do the demo that watches an all sports network. I look at it this way, they are years from developing a test for hgh. By the time they do, there will be something else. In the end only the wealthy players will be doing it, and you will still have cheating in baseball. In the end you have no effect but possibly a better public image. I also believe that illegal stimulants where used long before the alleged steroid era.
As for protect the kids argument really that is an argument you want to use, really? From 1990 -1998 I was in high school and college playing sports. From my first year in high school I was offered illegal enhancement drugs. This is back in the winter of 1991. This shit has been out there for a long ass time. I have been offered everything from speed to some injection steroid. I never took anything. If if you haven't notice todays youth is growing up a pot quicker then my generation did. With web access everywhere, if they want it they can get it. It isn't the MLB or any superstars job to parent ones kids.
I don't turn a blind eye I just don't give a shit about it and based off espns poll neither do the demo that watches an all sports network. I look at it this way, they are years from developing a test for hgh. By the time they do, there will be something else. In the end only the wealthy players will be doing it, and you will still have cheating in baseball. In the end you have no effect but possibly a better public image. I also believe that illegal stimulants where used long before the alleged steroid era.
As for protect the kids argument really that is an argument you want to use, really? From 1990 -1998 I was in high school and college playing sports. From my first year in high school I was offered illegal enhancement drugs. This is back in the winter of 1991. This shit has been out there for a long ass time. I have been offered everything from speed to some injection steroid. I never took anything. If if you haven't notice todays youth is growing up a pot quicker then my generation did. With web access everywhere, if they want it they can get it. It isn't the MLB or any superstars job to parent ones kids.
Monsta Mack
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Just ignore ryanbph he tends to get really defensive over stupid stuff. His mentality isn't all there.
How is it defensive? I have an opinion just like everyone else. I hadn't ever taken anything as a personal (untill your post) and I try not to make any personal attacks. So what if I debate aggresively, my best friend is a DA and a diehard Yankee fan. We have bantered back and forth for over 15 years about baseball.
What does my mentality not all there mean. Please explain. Is it because I have posted a shitload over the past 24 hours? I am sorry, but I have nothing else to do. Got hit at 67mph while I was stopped in mid sept. Car flipped, rolled and got hit by 4 other cars. I can barely move, can't game (any gamerscore change has been by friends that come over and I watch play), can't work and can't use a pc and I don't sleep much.
I have hated manny for years and have strong opinions about him. I wish steroids weren't in the game, but I firmly believe they (rules/testing) will always be 2 steps behind the developers of enhancement drugs. In 2003 1 in 7.5 (rounded) tested positive. At least one player on every team tested positive. It is safe to assume that some negative tested players where off cycle. Based on the numbers roughly 3 people per team where caught cheating. It is more then just the superstars. It is the marginal players who want to be in MLB. Wally joyner said he took steroids when he played for the braves at the end of his career, because his skills diminished and he wasn't ready to quit.
It isn't just the player/union/owners at fault. The media brought attention back to MLB during the sosa/mcguire years. The avg joe started to go back to the ballpark. (after the mess that was the players strike). People wanted to see the big homer, and the MLB turned a blind eye. They got revenue up and why bother policing it?
What does my mentality not all there mean. Please explain. Is it because I have posted a shitload over the past 24 hours? I am sorry, but I have nothing else to do. Got hit at 67mph while I was stopped in mid sept. Car flipped, rolled and got hit by 4 other cars. I can barely move, can't game (any gamerscore change has been by friends that come over and I watch play), can't work and can't use a pc and I don't sleep much.
I have hated manny for years and have strong opinions about him. I wish steroids weren't in the game, but I firmly believe they (rules/testing) will always be 2 steps behind the developers of enhancement drugs. In 2003 1 in 7.5 (rounded) tested positive. At least one player on every team tested positive. It is safe to assume that some negative tested players where off cycle. Based on the numbers roughly 3 people per team where caught cheating. It is more then just the superstars. It is the marginal players who want to be in MLB. Wally joyner said he took steroids when he played for the braves at the end of his career, because his skills diminished and he wasn't ready to quit.
It isn't just the player/union/owners at fault. The media brought attention back to MLB during the sosa/mcguire years. The avg joe started to go back to the ballpark. (after the mess that was the players strike). People wanted to see the big homer, and the MLB turned a blind eye. They got revenue up and why bother policing it?
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As Curt Schilling said the other day, "state all of the 104 players, not just A-Rod."
A-Rod must have been the biggest name on the list if he is the only one to get leaked. If it was another big time player, you would think that would have been mentioned.
Just imagine opening day at the new Yankee stadium. Fans cheer for the new stadium, then A-Rod approaches the base and the boos only will get louder for him (as if they weren't loud enough).
He should consider steroid use for playoff baseball, as he seems to choke when the team needs him the most. Heck, you're only making more than the entire Florida Marlins roster, you'd think he can produce on the juice
A-Rod must have been the biggest name on the list if he is the only one to get leaked. If it was another big time player, you would think that would have been mentioned.
Just imagine opening day at the new Yankee stadium. Fans cheer for the new stadium, then A-Rod approaches the base and the boos only will get louder for him (as if they weren't loud enough).
He should consider steroid use for playoff baseball, as he seems to choke when the team needs him the most. Heck, you're only making more than the entire Florida Marlins roster, you'd think he can produce on the juice
klwillis45
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[quote name='DJSteel']because of people like you who don't care or cast a blind eye, baseball will never be fixed.. and it needs to be... big time.. the NFL is now America's sport.. it's no longer baseball.. and it's because of steroids, not because the NFL doesn't use them, but at least they publicly test and suspend who is caught, and because of the economics, this sport will die. It needs someone to step up.. not a puppet like Bud Selig or Donald Fehr..[/quote] This has almost zero to do with why NFL is king. The NFL has a HUGE advantage compared to baseball and other sports: limited supply of games
[quote name='klwillis45']This has almost zero to do with why NFL is king. The NFL has a HUGE advantage compared to baseball and other sports: limited supply of games[/QUOTE]
not just that, NFL changes their rules when things don't work or need updating.. Baseball refuses to change with the times...
not just that, NFL changes their rules when things don't work or need updating.. Baseball refuses to change with the times...
Bud Selighttp://www.philly.com/philly/sports/columnists/20090210_Gonzo___ESPN_dances_to_Selig_s_tune.html
If you dont want to click on the link, basically Scott Van Pelt of ESPN started to make fun of Selig last week on his radio show but he brought up good points of why Selig sucks. Selig found out, talked with Van Pelt (who apologized) and that was suppose to be it. Well, this article today says that Selig ordered ESPN to suspend Van Pelt even after he apologized.
CaseyRyback
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The Tejada thing made me laugh. I guess Palmiero picked the right horse to pin the blame on for his positive test.
klwillis45
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[quote name='TheRock88'] Bud Selig
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/columnists/20090210_Gonzo___ESPN_dances_to_Selig_s_tune.html
If you dont want to click on the link, basically Scott Van Pelt of ESPN started to make fun of Selig last week on his radio show but he brought up good points of why Selig sucks. Selig found out, talked with Van Pelt (who apologized) and that was suppose to be it. Well, this article today says that Selig ordered ESPN to suspend Van Pelt even after he apologized.[/quote] I read about this elsewhere and that article said it was a ESPN decision, not a Selig mandate.
Bud Selighttp://www.philly.com/philly/sports/columnists/20090210_Gonzo___ESPN_dances_to_Selig_s_tune.html
If you dont want to click on the link, basically Scott Van Pelt of ESPN started to make fun of Selig last week on his radio show but he brought up good points of why Selig sucks. Selig found out, talked with Van Pelt (who apologized) and that was suppose to be it. Well, this article today says that Selig ordered ESPN to suspend Van Pelt even after he apologized.[/quote] I read about this elsewhere and that article said it was a ESPN decision, not a Selig mandate.
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='DJSteel']It's not anyone's fault but the players. They took them. They should be punished, but they won't.. What I don't get is steroid are illegal substances according to US law and these guys are still working.. That I don't get.[/quote]
DJSteel, I'm sorry..but you make some of the dumbesting posts I've ever seen. Of course it is the players' faults for ultimately making the decision to take PEDs. But to deny that there were other factors or influences is asinine. As I said in a previous post, there is plenty of blame to go around. You can blame MLB for not having any kind of testing policy and making it so ridiculously easy for these guys to get away with it for so long.
You can blame the agents for pressuring their clients to play at the highest level possible so they can get the biggest contract (maximizing the agent's percentage). And you can blame the MLBPA for being so opposed to drug testing, and threatening to strike if any limitations were imposed. This is either an act of pure deceipt or ignorance. Take your pick.
ryanbph even mentioned blaming the media for glorifying the home run. I'll even go one step further and blame the "fans" (by this I mean, the trendsetters who really don't care about the sport). These are the people who can't appreciate a pitcher's duel, or a good defensive play, or a sacrifice bunt. They wanted big, flashy baseball. And unfortunately, MLB made some bad choices and ended up catering to these people. Now when it's gone sour, these people, and the media, are all turning on MLB.
As for your "why are these guys still working?" argument, since when do you think drug possession charges can be back dated to 6 years ago? It's not like these guys are walking down the street with HGH in their pocket. MLB has no grounds to punish them because they had no testing/punishment policy then.
And if you refer to the NFL one more time as being the "superior league", I'm going to be sick. It's not like that league is free from controversy...what with its ongoing referee controversy, Spygate, criminal players, etc. Football has become more popular because it equates better with America's ever-shrinking attention span. Fewer games that don't last as long. Hmm...maybe it is perfect for you.
DJSteel, I'm sorry..but you make some of the dumbest
ing posts I've ever seen. Of course it is the players' faults for ultimately making the decision to take PEDs. But to deny that there were other factors or influences is asinine. As I said in a previous post, there is plenty of blame to go around. You can blame MLB for not having any kind of testing policy and making it so ridiculously easy for these guys to get away with it for so long. You can blame the agents for pressuring their clients to play at the highest level possible so they can get the biggest contract (maximizing the agent's percentage). And you can blame the MLBPA for being so opposed to drug testing, and threatening to strike if any limitations were imposed. This is either an act of pure deceipt or ignorance. Take your pick.
ryanbph even mentioned blaming the media for glorifying the home run. I'll even go one step further and blame the "fans" (by this I mean, the trendsetters who really don't care about the sport). These are the people who can't appreciate a pitcher's duel, or a good defensive play, or a sacrifice bunt. They wanted big, flashy baseball. And unfortunately, MLB made some bad choices and ended up catering to these people. Now when it's gone sour, these people, and the media, are all turning on MLB.
As for your "why are these guys still working?" argument, since when do you think drug possession charges can be back dated to 6 years ago? It's not like these guys are walking down the street with HGH in their pocket. MLB has no grounds to punish them because they had no testing/punishment policy then.
And if you refer to the NFL one more time as being the "superior league", I'm going to be sick. It's not like that league is free from controversy...what with its ongoing referee controversy, Spygate, criminal players, etc. Football has become more popular because it equates better with America's ever-shrinking attention span. Fewer games that don't last as long. Hmm...maybe it is perfect for you.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']DJSteel, I'm sorry..but you make some of the dumbest ing posts I've ever seen. Of course it is the players' faults for ultimately making the decision to take PEDs. But to deny that there were other factors or influences is asinine. As I said in a previous post, there is plenty of blame to go around. You can blame MLB for not having any kind of testing policy and making it so ridiculously easy for these guys to get away with it for so long. [/quote]
What factors made players inject themselves with steroids? I'm sick of the excuses. No one forced them to use the needles. You really think A-Rod, Bonds, and Clemens needed to inject themselves? To blame the fact the you used steroids to make more money and break MLB records on the media, fans, and/or ownership is a cop out. A-Rods excuse was about justifying the money he received from Texas. PLEASE! It's guaranteed money. Not like they can force you to give it back.
I do blame MLB and MLBPA. Neither one of them wanted this issue to come out in the open and instead of dealing with it, they let it build up to what they got now.
I understand that the media glorifies the home run, but the most exciting ball games were pitchers duels. I turned on baseball a long time ago, and it wasn't about how they play the game, it was all about the economics. I still watched the playoffs and world series, just because playoff baseball was fun to watch.
I don't believe there is a statute of limitations on felony charges for drug possession. They proved that he used.
Lol.. thanks!
I never said there weren't problems with the NFL.. but at least they change their rules if they don't work. Baseball doesn't. Football is a better sport because instead of just 8-10 teams that can compete for a world title, the whole league has a chance. The economics are better for everyone involved and no guaranteed contracts. You don't have a Carlos Beltran or Adrian Beltre, who have killer hot streaks during their contract year and get huge money for it then under perform once they get the money. In football, the refs apologize and recognize their mistakes, in MLB they just toss the managers and anyone who disagrees with them even if they are wrong.
ing posts I've ever seen. Of course it is the players' faults for ultimately making the decision to take PEDs. But to deny that there were other factors or influences is asinine. As I said in a previous post, there is plenty of blame to go around. You can blame MLB for not having any kind of testing policy and making it so ridiculously easy for these guys to get away with it for so long. [/quote]What factors made players inject themselves with steroids? I'm sick of the excuses. No one forced them to use the needles. You really think A-Rod, Bonds, and Clemens needed to inject themselves? To blame the fact the you used steroids to make more money and break MLB records on the media, fans, and/or ownership is a cop out. A-Rods excuse was about justifying the money he received from Texas. PLEASE! It's guaranteed money. Not like they can force you to give it back.
I do blame MLB and MLBPA. Neither one of them wanted this issue to come out in the open and instead of dealing with it, they let it build up to what they got now.
I understand that the media glorifies the home run, but the most exciting ball games were pitchers duels. I turned on baseball a long time ago, and it wasn't about how they play the game, it was all about the economics. I still watched the playoffs and world series, just because playoff baseball was fun to watch.
I don't believe there is a statute of limitations on felony charges for drug possession. They proved that he used.
Lol.. thanks!
I never said there weren't problems with the NFL.. but at least they change their rules if they don't work. Baseball doesn't. Football is a better sport because instead of just 8-10 teams that can compete for a world title, the whole league has a chance. The economics are better for everyone involved and no guaranteed contracts. You don't have a Carlos Beltran or Adrian Beltre, who have killer hot streaks during their contract year and get huge money for it then under perform once they get the money. In football, the refs apologize and recognize their mistakes, in MLB they just toss the managers and anyone who disagrees with them even if they are wrong.
bread's done