Black Teen Shot, Killed By Neighborhood Watch

[fifamaniac]

I agree that it *could* have gone exactly like Zimmerman's defense described. I just think that when you're found standing over a dead body and you confess to killing someone that the burden should be on you to explain how it happened.

Trayvon being dead was a positive outcome for the defense. That's... a bad thing. Require an affirmative defense. That's all I'm saying. The burden should be on me to explain why I'm standing over the body of a dead person, not the state.

Take the friggin stand and speak under oath.

I was surprised he didn't take the stand. Along with the Hannity interview........ two own goals from the outside looking in.

Based on your premise of how the defense should be on him, i fail to see how it'd change anything. Evidence provided shows Zimmerman with a broken nose and dents around his head. Medical examiner Rao also testified that the abrasions on Martin's hands were consistent with him striking someone. Then you have the audio tapes from 911 calls that capture continued shouts of ''help me'' considering the person called 911 due to the shouts, and the fact they continue until 30 seconds into the call. You can determine these shouts went on for at least 30 seconds possibly 40 or 50. After that there is a gunshot. While there was dispute to who's shouts they were, it's unlikely a person punching another would be shouting help me. Consistent with the injuries to Zimmerman and his story, the audio tapes of ''Help me'' Would clearly reaffirm his side of the story. That he was being punched. Now when you consider he was shouting ''help me'' for 40-50 seconds, that's a long time and if it continoues or he panics that this person might then reach for his gun, you can certainly say he was in fear for his life, therefore had reasonable cause for self defense.

 

[DurbanBrown]

i agree with the verdict. that is all.

 

[kill3r7]

I agree that it *could* have gone exactly like Zimmerman's defense described. I just think that when you're found standing over a dead body and you confess to killing someone that the burden should be on you to explain how it happened.

Trayvon being dead was a positive outcome for the defense. That's... a bad thing. Require an affirmative defense. That's all I'm saying. The burden should be on me to explain why I'm standing over the body of a dead person, not the state.

Take the friggin stand and speak under oath.

Self-Defense is an affirmative defense in the state of FL. However, an individual still reserves the right not to testify and the burden lies with the prosecution.

Unless their theory of the case was stand your ground there was no need for GZ to testify, legally speaking.

 

[dohdough]

I was surprised he didn't take the stand. Along with the Hannity interview........ two own goals from the outside looking in.
Based on your premise of how the defense should be on him, i fail to see how it'd change anything. Evidence provided shows Zimmerman with a broken nose and dents around his head.

No it doesn't. A swollen nose is not evidence of a broken nose and if he had "dents" around his head from being smashed on concrete, it would mean his skull was shattered in different places. Bones don't "dent." HTH

Medical examiner Rao also testified that the abrasions on Martin's hands were consistent with him striking someone.

Dr. Bao said that the abrasion, not abrasionS, could've been caused at anytime and as superficial as it can get, while not necessarily having come from punching someone.

Then you have the audio tapes from 911 calls that capture continued shouts of ''help me'' considering the person called 911 due to the shouts, and the fact they continue until 30 seconds into the call. You can determine these shouts went on for at least 30 seconds possibly 40 or 50. After that there is a gunshot. While there was dispute to who's shouts they were, it's unlikely a person punching another would be shouting help me.

If someone stalked me, attempted to illegally detain me, and then brandished a weapon, I'd be screaming for help too even if I was on top. This is not a farfetched scenario and just as likely as yours.

Consistent with the injuries to Zimmerman and his story, the audio tapes of ''Help me'' Would clearly reaffirm his side of the story. That he was being punched. Now when you consider he was shouting ''help me'' for 40-50 seconds, that's a long time and if it continoues or he panics that this person might then reach for his gun, you can certainly say he was in fear for his life, therefore had reasonable cause for self defense.

Actually, there's no proof that Martin punched Zimmerman and caused those injuries. Absolutely none.

I'm going to pull a Pliskin here and say that all you Zimmerman supporters make me sick.

 

[dilemna]

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/05/23/zimmerman-sanford-police-covered-up-beating-of-black-homeless-man-by-white-officer/   What a racist!

http://postimg.org/image/tpihbiu1h/   Hmmm, and he was acting suspiciously looking around, in a neighborhood with a lot of burglary's.

dohdoh?  Your ''No Proof'' Comment is interesting.  On page 3 of this thread you basically assumed Zimmerman racially profilled a black teen, stalked him, tried to detain him till the police got him then shot him when they got into a struggle.  And you also disagreed with the verdict which couldn't have been anything other than not guilty given the law and the fact there was certainly nowhere near any proof to say this was murder or manslaughter......  Try to think before you post, a lot of what you said was innaccurate also.

I understand some people want to play up to the race narrative despite how irrelevant it truly was to this case originally, obviously now it's the focal issue. But even hypocritical liberals must question if it's wise to allign yourselves with Al Sharpton?  the Black Panthers?  One has put a bounty on Zimmerman's head and labelled him a jew, and the other was responsible for inciting racial hatred that resulted in people being killed before, and seems intent to do it again. 

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/07/14/legal-insights-on-the-zimmerman-verdict/?mod=e2tw  Experts on the law of self defense and whether it was correct in this case.

The media set out to destroy Zimmerman from the get go. Prosecution witheld evidence, fired a guy for exposing this. The judge seemed incompetant. The jury were under pressure through accusation they'd be racist or hated if they didn't find him guilty.  This whole sham was clearly biased against Zimmerman, yet somehow the system is anti black, people are rioting and liberals are exploiting this best they can.    In  the end it turns out Zimmerman isn't racist at all, Zimmerman actually only realized 100% he was black 1 minute into the 9/11 call when he got closer.  But it was the media race baiting that got this to trial in the 1st place, as black people perceieved a racist not being arrested for murdering a black kid so protested that he be arrested and it go to trial.  Both things happenend which meant for more coverage, more spin, more digging into backgrounds to find dirt, more race baiting. 

Then a lot of casual people were given the view he must be found guilty, so when he wasn't, the jurors are racist, the system is anti black, and they're outraged, it's an injustice, even though there was no chance he'd be found guilty at any stage based on the law and the evidence.

Is it really so hard to put your liberal hat down and say we were wrong?

 

[Knoell]

I agree that it *could* have gone exactly like Zimmerman's defense described. I just think that when you're found standing over a dead body and you confess to killing someone that the burden should be on you to explain how it happened.

Trayvon being dead was a positive outcome for the defense. That's... a bad thing. Require an affirmative defense. That's all I'm saying. The burden should be on me to explain why I'm standing over the body of a dead person, not the state.

Take the friggin stand and speak under oath.

That first line would be all fine and good but he did explain the situation to authorities. They determined that he should not be charged. The public started calling for his head, and therefore he was charged. I understand completely why he didn't want to testify. Did you hear some of the things the prosecution was throwing at him as indicative of his guilt?

 

[Purple Flames]

I don't expect most of you to understand the issues brought up in this article, and if history has taught me anything, it's that you'll all just outright brush it off as more "race-baiting", but i'm gonna go on and post it anyway: http://www.ebony.com/news-views/dear-white-folks-black-people-are-sensitive-to-race-so-and-what#axzz2Z5CvgBuY

 

[berzirk]

It's been amazing to watch the summarized version of the case on Twitter and by celebrities. "Guess in America you're still allowed to follow and kill an unarmed black child if you're white!". I can only imagine Twitter's 140 characters mean it's an honest mistake that they left out "...if you're being punched and beaten." This case was always about self defense vs. murder, and it seems like according to the jury, self defense won.

 

[jputahraptor]

I was surprised he didn't take the stand. Along with the Hannity interview........ two own goals from the outside looking in.

Based on your premise of how the defense should be on him, i fail to see how it'd change anything. Evidence provided shows Zimmerman with a broken nose and dents around his head. Medical examiner Rao also testified that the abrasions on Martin's hands were consistent with him striking someone. Then you have the audio tapes from 911 calls that capture continued shouts of ''help me'' considering the person called 911 due to the shouts, and the fact they continue until 30 seconds into the call. You can determine these shouts went on for at least 30 seconds possibly 40 or 50. After that there is a gunshot. While there was dispute to who's shouts they were, it's unlikely a person punching another would be shouting help me. Consistent with the injuries to Zimmerman and his story, the audio tapes of ''Help me'' Would clearly reaffirm his side of the story. That he was being punched. Now when you consider he was shouting ''help me'' for 40-50 seconds, that's a long time and if it continoues or he panics that this person might then reach for his gun, you can certainly say he was in fear for his life, therefore had reasonable cause for self defense.

Most defendant's don't take the stand. OJ didn't, Casey didn't, Scott Peterson, and tons of other high profile cases don't, especially public ones. If you think about it, the defense's job is to DEFEND from the prosecution, going on stand is like making a bet with someone in which only you put money down, there is nothing to gain and to much to lose if an aggressive prosecutor uses tricky questions to get you to contradict yourself. That is not a reason to be thought of as guilty, many people are indeed innocent who don't testify. Besides they had plenty of testimony from GZ with Hannity, and on record in the film reenactment and audio with the police which were all made public. Most don't even do that, plus with the stress of this being such a public trial I can understand not wanting to. Hell OJ's trial lasted like 8 months, he didn't dare take the stand because his "dream team" was smarter than that.

 

[joeboosauce]

No it doesn't. A swollen nose is not evidence of a broken nose and if he had "dents" around his head from being smashed on concrete, it would mean his skull was shattered in different places. Bones don't "dent." HTH

Dr. Bao said that the abrasion, not abrasionS, could've been caused at anytime and as superficial as it can get, while not necessarily having come from punching someone.

If someone stalked me, attempted to illegally detain me, and then brandished a weapon, I'd be screaming for help too even if I was on top. This is not a farfetched scenario and just as likely as yours.

Actually, there's no proof that Martin punched Zimmerman and caused those injuries. Absolutely none.

I'm going to pull a Pliskin here and say that all you Zimmerman supporters make me sick.

You're right on all counts but you miss the KEY point. Trayvon was... BLACK! Zimmerman pursued him because of his skin color and had racist motivations because of that. All these sick cons think the same thing and they want to live out the fantasy of "killin' a nig$$r" like their friend Ted Nugent. This man is worshiped by these sick people.

Right-Wing Darling Ted Nugent Wants To Hunt Blacks From A Helicopter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs7iVf16cXA

 

[kill3r7]

Most defendant's don't take the stand. OJ didn't, Casey didn't, Scott Peterson, and tons of other high profile cases don't, especially public ones. If you think about it, the defense's job is to DEFEND from the prosecution, going on stand is like making a bet with someone in which only you put money down, there is nothing to gain and to much to lose if an aggressive prosecutor uses tricky questions to get you to contradict yourself. That is not a reason to be thought of as guilty, many people are indeed innocent who don't testify. Besides they had plenty of testimony from GZ with Hannity, and on record in the film reenactment and audio with the police which were all made public. Most don't even do that, plus with the stress of this being such a public trial I can understand not wanting to. Hell OJ's trial lasted like 8 months, he didn't dare take the stand because his "dream team" was smarter than that.

Keeping your client off the stand is one of the golden rules taught to every law student in trial advocacy or trail clinic. Nothing good can come of it. Even prepped witnesses in trial competitions (controlled setting) will up and get destroyed on cross. There is very little to be gained by putting your client on the stand.

 

[speedracer]

That first line would be all fine and good but he did explain the situation to authorities. They determined that he should not be charged. The public started calling for his head, and therefore he was charged. I understand completely why he didn't want to testify. Did you hear some of the things the prosecution was throwing at him as indicative of his guilt?

I understand fully why he didn't testify. My problem is with a system in which that's a no brainer decision.

Follow me here on an admittedly imperfect scenario. Forums suck ass for stuff like this but give me the benefit of the doubt and get the gist instead of getting caught up on details:

You and I and 50 other people have started a community that has no law whatsoever. We are a law unto ourselves. We find that one of our members has killed another member. When called to testify, said member refuses to speak on their own behalf and instead demands that we accept that the fact that we cannot prove that he killed the other in malice which means we must let him go free.

There's no galaxy where a reasonable body accepts that. And yet that's a feature, not a bug, of our current system.

I just can't see that as reasonable.

There's a Futurama episode where the group is trying to freak out Fry so they lie to him and tell him Leela is being tortured and killed. Every time I think about Zimmerman's defense attorneys presenting an explanation I hear Bender reacting to Fry's reaction to their lies:

Fry: *gasp* "This can't be happening!"
Bender: "It can, and for all you know it is!"

 

[Finger_Shocker]

This is the ONLY time when right wingers conservatives do not defend the victim ? when the victim is BLACK

You should see all the other cases where the rightys condemn the defendent way before the verdict..  You seen those righties in the Casey Anthony thread, you swear its like Casey killed their kid or something..

Yea but they ain't "racist", we got a "black" president blah blah blah...

Look Martin will probably be a thug and get killed in the future due to hanging with the wrong crowd or doing something bad, but what happened THAT NIGHT, he did not deserve it or had anything coming to him.  And for the conservatives to thinks its ok to murder a young person with a unknown possible future just because he's a minority... welll you know..

 

[speedracer]

Just a side note because some people have pointed out that the defense did not explicitly use the stand your ground thing: The jury charge specifically called for it to be considered. This was a stand your ground case. Period. 

 

[jputahraptor]

This is the ONLY time when right wingers conservatives do not defend the victim ? when the victim is BLACK

You should see all the other cases where the rightys condemn the defendent way before the verdict.. You seen those righties in the Casey Anthony thread, you swear its like Casey killed their kid or something..

Yea but they ain't "racist", we got a "black" president blah blah blah...

Look Martin will probably be a thug and get killed in the future due to hanging with the wrong crowd or doing something bad, but what happened THAT NIGHT, he did not deserve it or had anything coming to him. And for the conservatives to thinks its ok to murder a young person with a unknown possible future just because he's a minority... welll you know..

You are the last person on these forums who should be calling out people for their bias. Yours alone is so obnoxiously over the top and you generalize half the country politically and a whole race of people with no factual data whatsoever based on your own preconceived notions and personal racist and bias beliefs. You call out people for racism in such a way, and have such a cynical view of those who don't share your beliefs, that you are the very thing you accuse other people on this forum for sticking to their beliefs. I hope you reflect on your own posts someday with an open mind and realize what a racist and short sighted view of the world you have.

Plus I don't think any sane person thought Casey Anthony was innocent of any color or political party, and she had tons of death threats and had to go into hiding. So do you think those death threats came from black people who had no stake in that trial, whites whom you believe all work together to keep a race of people down, or some other group or a little bit of everyone? Not everyone like you is so obsessed with race and politics on a case by case basis. Scott Peterson, the other Peterson cop who killed his wife, Jodi Arias, just a few examples of whites who were convicted and were almost universally believed guilty everywhere I went. If the evidence, or lack thereof is overwhelming than the appropriate conclusion is reached, I can't think of a person on any of those 3 people who thought they were innocent in the media or forums.

 

[Spokker]

Right-wingers, tea baggers and other racists rallied around a half-Peruvian Democrat!

 

[kill3r7]

Just a side note because some people have pointed out that the defense did not explicitly use the stand your ground thing: The jury charge specifically called for it to be considered. This was a stand your ground case. Period.

No it is not. The jury was instructed on the stand your ground because O'Mara asked the Judge to. The line of thinking behind this move was so if he GZ is sued in civil court, they (the jury) may be part of a separate special hearing (loophole in FL law) where if they find that GZ meets the self-defense requirements under stand your ground he is immune to civil litigation. Thus he cannot be sued for wrongful death. O'Mara covered his bases well.

 

[willardhaven]

Right-wingers, tea baggers and other racists rallied around a half-Peruvian Democrat!

Is this the "I have black friends" justification for your racism?

 

[Thekrakrabbit]

I lol'd at seeing hordes of people, populated mainly by black people, walking down streets with shirts that said "it's not a black or white thing". Um...isn't that what the majority of the black community and media has made it out to be? LOL

 

[willardhaven]

I lol'd at seeing hordes of people, populated mainly by black people, walking down streets with shirts that said "it's not a black or white thing". Um...isn't that what the majority of the black community and media has made it out to be? LOL

Well, punishment is statistically more severe if the victim is white. I think they are trying to send the message that "if Zimmerman and Martin were purple, the verdict would still be an injustice."

 

[Purple Flames]

Is this the "I have black friends" justification for your racism?

Do you even have to ask?

 

[Spokker]

Hahaha, we are divided in more ways than one!

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07/15/protester-rebuked-by-angry-woman-for-bringing-up-lgbt-oppression-at-trayvon-martin-rally-this-is-not-about-no-gay-st/

Hilarious stuff.

 

[willardhaven]

That guy was a

Hahaha, we are divided in more ways than one!

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07/15/protester-rebuked-by-angry-woman-for-bringing-up-lgbt-oppression-at-trayvon-martin-rally-this-is-not-about-no-gay-st/

Hilarious stuff.

That guy was a joke but you might want to tone down the exuberance.

 

[cancerman1120]

Well I can only say I am glad I am not living in FL anymore.  

http://www.nydailynews.com/man-shoots-teen-loud-music-article-1.1209345

A Florida man asked a group of teens at a gas station to turn down the loud music blaring from their car and, after an exchange of words, opened fire on the vehicle, killing a 17-year-old boy, authorities said.

Michael Dunn, 45, of Satellite Beach, has been charged with murder for the Friday slaying of Jordan Davis, 17, a black high school student from the Jacksonville area.

His lawyer said Dunn, who is white, thought he saw a gun and felt threatened during the incident, indicating that he may seek protection under the state’s controversial Stand Your Ground Law, according to local reports.

"Self defense applies because Mr. Dunn was threatened," attorney Robin Lemonidis told CNN.

"We can't say what the defense will be at this stage … but Stand Your Ground is a possibility."

The alleged murder occurred on Friday as Dunn and his girlfriend were traveling to Jacksonville for his son’s wedding, the Orlando Sentinel reported.

The pair pulled into a gas station parking lot and stopped next to an SUV, which Davis was sitting in with three other teens, authorities said.

While his girlfriend was inside the store, Dunn asked the teens to turn down the loud music they were playing, cops said.

Davis said something back and there was a heated exchange, authorities said.

Dunn then pulled a gun and fired at least eight shots, hitting Davis twice, cops told the Sentinel.

Dunn and his girlfriend then left the scene.

The Sentinel said the two were staying in a Jacksonville hotel on Saturday when they heard news reports about the teen’s death and drove back to his home in Satellite Beach.

He was arrested at his home on Saturday and charged with murder and attempted murder.

He remains in jail after being denied bond on Monday.

No guns were found inside the teens’ car, authorities said.

Davis’ family demanded justice, saying there was no way Dunn fired in self-defense.

"He did something that there was no defense for," Ron David, Jordan’s father, told CNN.

The shooting immediately drew comparisons to the murder of Trayvon Martin in February, which sparked protests over Florida’s self defense laws and accusations that George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot him, was a racist.

Lemonidis said his client was “no vigilante.”

“There are no comparisons to the Trayvon Martin situation," Lemonidis told CNN. "(Dunn) is devastated and horrified by the death of the teen."

Jordan, who was a student at a magnet school in Duval County, will be buried in his hometown of Marietta, Ga., where his mother lives, according to reports.

Follow up article.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpopular/story/New-evidence-released-in-Michael-Dunn-case/8EAFuUAkn0SDWAoffkDr6A.cspx

 

[dohdough]

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/05/23/zimmerman-sanford-police-covered-up-beating-of-black-homeless-man-by-white-officer/ What a racist!

http://postimg.org/image/tpihbiu1h/ Hmmm, and he was acting suspiciously looking around, in a neighborhood with a lot of burglary's.

People look around when walking. News at 11.

dohdoh? Your ''No Proof'' Comment is interesting. On page 3 of this thread you basically assumed Zimmerman racially profilled a black teen, stalked him, tried to detain him till the police got him then shot him when they got into a struggle.

You sure about that? Find me that quote.

And you also disagreed with the verdict which couldn't have been anything other than not guilty given the law and the fact there was certainly nowhere near any proof to say this was murder or manslaughter......

What does the jury's verdict have to do with something being under the law? The jury can judge in anyway they deem fit, but that doesn't mean that what someone did is or isn't illegal. Their ability to judge and have it be legally binding is what's in accordance to the law; not the opinion they reach.

Try to think before you post, a lot of what you said was innaccurate also.

ORLY? Says the person that can't seem to help BUT assume things other people said.

I understand some people want to play up to the race narrative despite how irrelevant it truly was to this case originally, obviously now it's the focal issue. But even hypocritical liberals must question if it's wise to allign yourselves with Al Sharpton? the Black Panthers? One has put a bounty on Zimmerman's head and labelled him a jew, and the other was responsible for inciting racial hatred that resulted in people being killed before, and seems intent to do it again.

The Al Sharpton boogieman huh? It's like the Godwin meme for racists or something. I guess siding with stormfront and other overt white supremacists is so much better than Al Sharpton.

Btw, the Black Panthers have absolutely nothing to do with what you're describing. Technically, Zimmerman IS half-Jewish, so you must be admitting that there's such a thing as racist dogwhistles. Weren't you just chiding me on making inaccurate statements?

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/07/14/legal-insights-on-the-zimmerman-verdict/?mod=e2tw Experts on the law of self defense and whether it was correct in this case.

This is nice and all, but the Stand Your Ground defense wasn't used in this case. Thanks for the time waster.

The media set out to destroy Zimmerman from the get go. Prosecution witheld evidence, fired a guy for exposing this.

The judge seemed incompetant. The jury were under pressure through accusation they'd be racist or hated if they didn't find him guilty. This whole sham was clearly biased against Zimmerman, yet somehow the system is anti black, people are rioting and liberals are exploiting this best they can.

[/quote]
theblaze.com is some HARD hitting news. Or maybe the Citizens Grand Jury(TM) isn't some far right wing group filled with hacks. I'd trust them for their "expert" opinion as much as I'd trust DailyKos and Perez Hilton.

Yeah, the country is totally burning down right now from all the riots. It's not like people are using racist dog whistles or boasting about how they'd love a race war so that they could kill some black people.

Do you live in a bubble of racist right wing nuttery?

In the end it turns out Zimmerman isn't racist at all, Zimmerman actually only realized 100% he was black 1 minute into the 9/11 call when he got closer.

AHAHAHAHAH...Bullshit. Spin me another one, holmes.

But it was the media race baiting that got this to trial in the 1st place, as black people perceieved a racist not being arrested for murdering a black kid so protested that he be arrested and it go to trial. Both things happenend which meant for more coverage, more spin, more digging into backgrounds to find dirt, more race baiting.

Actually, people were upset that there wasn't any semblance of an actual investigation and there wasn't one because the top cop told Serino to drop it. It was bigger than Zimmerman when the local police department had regularly demonstrated problems when it came to preferential treatment, of which Zimmerman received.

Race baiting is a stupid ing term. Race exists and has societal weight whether one admits it or not. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Then a lot of casual people were given the view he must be found guilty, so when he wasn't, the jurors are racist, the system is anti black, and they're outraged, it's an injustice, even though there was no chance he'd be found guilty at any stage based on the law and the evidence.


Is it really so hard to put your liberal hat down and say we were wrong?

Seems like you like repeating yourself.
Jurors aren't lawyers nor are they experts on anything related to the case. A jury could find Hitler innocent of all crimes and it'd still be legally binding.

Oh...and wrong about what?[/QUOTE]

 

[slidecage]

Told you it would not take long....

white people let him go... there was not a single black person on the jury......  no one had a problem with the jury   before the outcome so just   shut the  up  about  how there was no blacks on the jury.

yea he was never  in trouble with the law cause the school covered it up that is why  he was busted with  stolen  jewelry back in 2011   but the school never turn him over to the cops just kicked him out of school

 

[Knoell]

I understand fully why he didn't testify. My problem is with a system in which that's a no brainer decision.

Follow me here on an admittedly imperfect scenario. Forums suck ass for stuff like this but give me the benefit of the doubt and get the gist instead of getting caught up on details:

You and I and 50 other people have started a community that has no law whatsoever. We are a law unto ourselves. We find that one of our members has killed another member. When called to testify, said member refuses to speak on their own behalf and instead demands that we accept that the fact that we cannot prove that he killed the other in malice which means we must let him go free.

There's no galaxy where a reasonable body accepts that. And yet that's a feature, not a bug, of our current system.

I just can't see that as reasonable.

There's a Futurama episode where the group is trying to freak out Fry so they lie to him and tell him Leela is being tortured and killed. Every time I think about Zimmerman's defense attorneys presenting an explanation I hear Bender reacting to Fry's reaction to their lies:

Fry: *gasp* "This can't be happening!"
Bender: "It can, and for all you know it is!"

Again I understand what you are saying, and you seem to believe it is a feature not a bug. I don't think it was a "I am not testifying because you can't prove I did it" taking the 5th. I believe it was a "I am not taking the stand because you are going to pick me apart on every little detail, and maybe it will sway the jury that I'm guilty" taking the 5th. Which again you say you understand why he didn't testify, I guess I am trying to figure out how you would rather the system be?

 

[dilemna]

I lol'd at seeing hordes of people, populated mainly by black people, walking down streets with shirts that said "it's not a black or white thing". Um...isn't that what the majority of the black community and media has made it out to be? LOL

Lol, it's the only reason their protesting. It's shown a lot of black people up to be racists. In a way they're just ignorant of what racism is more than anything, and also a bit naive to how they were manipulated by race baiters. As for hypocritical liberal element, who'll join in or encourage such protests yet not give a damn if it's a white person. I think really the non double standards, type of liberal has to seperate from the other labelling everyone racist type. It tarnishes the whole liberal concept because it's simply a socialism sleepwalk.

There's some real cool liberals out there and they are tarnished by these idiots who choose to exploit every situation.

Im done talking about this case because in the end im not sure it's right to start digging dirt on a dead kids character, and what he did. I'm not comfortable with trashing the guy, as young people can get caught up in that stuff at 17. People should drop the witchhunt on Zimmerman though. I don't think he at all set out to shoot a kid and was unlucky to find himself in the situation where he felt he had to do so.

 

[Finger_Shocker]

Yes Zimmerman went looking for trouble that night and ended up killing a kid and got to walk away scot free ... 

Imagine if Zimmerman stay put and let the cops come, Martin would still be alive.  Martin would not had to tell his girl buddy some fat white dude was following him ...

We have thrown people in prison for far less evidence and to allow a scumbag racist profiler like Zimmerman to walk is a farking shame. 

 

[Finger_Shocker]

To not even convict this man of manslaughter is a farking shame...

 

[dilemna]

Yes Zimmerman went looking for trouble that night and ended up killing a kid and got to walk away scot free ...

Imagine if Zimmerman stay put and let the cops come, Martin would still be alive. Martin would not had to tell his girl buddy some fat white dude was following him ...

We have thrown people in prison for far less evidence and to allow a scumbag racist profiler like Zimmerman to walk is a farking shame.

He didn't racially profile anyone. Go to listen to the phone call. ''Is he white, Hispanic, or black'' ''He looks black'' about 30 seconds later ''yeah he's black'' as he got closer. How can you racially profile someone you're not even sure what color they are?

Anyway im sure if Iran nuked the US or a white man shot a black gang raping his daughter, you'd blame the US and the white man in some way so it's pointless discussing anything with you.

 

[Finger_Shocker]

Lol.... HE LOOKS BLACK

Or he could have said.... I don't know, can't tell, I need a closer look...

Why pick black as the first race out of his head...LOL

I ain't racist, I just make assumptions that black people are criminals first before correcting myself if they are not... LOL

 

[kill3r7]

To not even convict this man of manslaughter is a farking shame...

How would they convict him of manslaughter?

If Self-Defense holds up for murder, it will hold up for manslaughter as well. The act is the same only the mens rea differs, which is not in question when an affirmative defense is used. Essentially in layman's terms GZ admitted to having killed TM but he claimed to have done so in SD. The burden on the prosecution would have been the same under either charge.

Here's a good article which explains why Self-Defense was so hard to topple in this case.

 

[Knoell]

Or he could have said.... I don't know, can't tell, I need a closer look...

Why pick black as the first race out of his head...LOL

Maybe because he looked black.

I thoroughly enjoy how every detail of the case is fully detailed as a conspiracy to fool us created by Zimmerman.

 

[Spokker]

Just a side note because some people have pointed out that the defense did not explicitly use the stand your ground thing: The jury charge specifically called for it to be considered. This was a stand your ground case. Period.

It was irrelevant because Zimmerman had no opportunity to escape anyway.

If SYG did not exist, the outcome of the trial would be the same.

Angela Corey herself does not think SYG was relevant here. She said that element disappeared: http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/15/zimmermans-prosecutors-did-not-think-the

 

[kill3r7]

It was irrelevant because Zimmerman had no opportunity to escape anyway.

If SYG did not exist, the outcome of the trial would be the same.

Angela Corey herself does not think SYG was relevant here. She said that element disappeared: http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/15/zimmermans-prosecutors-did-not-think-the

Actually SYG is really useful in shielding GZ from any potential wrongful death suit which is a major loophole in FL law. Hence why O'Mara asked that the jury to be instructed on SYG.

 

[Spokker]

Then the claim is that SYG might shield Zimmerman from a civil suit, not that it's absence would have made any difference in this case.

This was a self-defense case no matter what state it occurred in.

 

[kill3r7]

Then the claim is that SYG might shield Zimmerman from a civil suit, not that it's absence would have made any difference in this case.

This was a self-defense case no matter what state it occurred in.



Stated as much about 20 posts back. The jury was instructed on it only because it might protect GZ from a civil suit. There would be a special hearing if GZ is sued for wrongful death. This is a major loophole in FL law that the media will catch up on soon enough.

 

[fifamaniac]

No it doesn't. A swollen nose is not evidence of a broken nose and if he had "dents" around his head from being smashed on concrete, it would mean his skull was shattered in different places. Bones don't "dent." HTH

Dr. Bao said that the abrasion, not abrasionS, could've been caused at anytime and as superficial as it can get, while not necessarily having come from punching someone.

If someone stalked me, attempted to illegally detain me, and then brandished a weapon, I'd be screaming for help too even if I was on top. This is not a farfetched scenario and just as likely as yours.

Actually, there's no proof that Martin punched Zimmerman and caused those injuries. Absolutely none.

I'm going to pull a Pliskin here and say that all you Zimmerman supporters make me sick.

Not guilty. Just going on the evidence provided. Which you are not. Everywhere reports she indicated the abrasions not abrasion so im not sure why you incorrected me. A medical examiner indicates that the abrasions on his knuckles were consistent with striking someone. Then there is Renowned forensics expert Vincent Di Maio who indicated that the teenager's sweatshirt was two to four inches away from his body at the time he was shot, meaning that Martin was leaning forward over Zimmerman when he was killed. Then the only eye witness describes

Good testified that he saw what he believed to be Martin on top of Zimmerman. "The color on top was dark and the color at bottom was…red," Good said referring to the men's clothing. At another point he told the court that the person on the bottom had "lighter skin color."

Zimmerman is a white Hispanic who was wearing a red and black jacket that night. Martin, who was black, was wearing a dark sweatshirt.

"The person on the bottom, I could hear a 'Help,'" Good said.

Under cross examination by Zimmerman's lawyer, Good said he believes he saw Martin on top punching Zimmerman "MMA style," a reference to mixed martial arts.

"The person on top was ground and pounding the person on the bottom?"asked Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara.

"Correct," said Good

Then there is the phone call in which you can hear someone shout for help again and again. You seem to think it's as likely somebody punching someone else is screaming for help, as much as it is the person being punched. I would say that's not really true. But hears what his dad had to say when he had the tapes

Serino testified that when Martin's father, Tracy Martin, first heard the tape he said it was not Trayvon. "He looked away and under his breath said, 'No,'" Serino told the court.

A second police officer gave a similar description of Tracy Martin's reaction to the tape. Saying your scenario isn't farfetched and as likely as mine based on the evidence is clearly false. If you take a neutral standpoint it is pretty clear that Zimmerman was being striked and on bottom in a struggle. Whether he needed to shoot him i don't know. Probably he didn't. But if he did fear he could get his gun and use it on him, then i guess you can see why he did panic.

 

[Spokker]

CNN is speaking to juror B37. Someone posted this summary of everything she has said so far.

First juror to speak says she believes George Zimmerman feared for his life. Juror says she didn't think Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin and that race did not play a role. Zimmerman's heart was in the right place. It just went terribly wrong. He's guilty of not using good judgment

First vote among jurors: 3 not guilty; 2 manslaughter; 1 second-degree murder, juror tells Anderson Cooper

This is a major loophole in FL law that the media will catch up on soon enough.

A loophole? Depends on your point of view. I think Zimmerman should be immune from any civil case by design, not just because there's a loophole.

 

[dohdough]

Not guilty. Just going on the evidence provided. Which you are not. Everywhere reports she indicated the abrasions not abrasion so im not sure why you incorrected me. A medical examiner indicates that the abrasions on his knuckles were consistent with striking someone.

You didn't read the autopsy report did you!

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40362_Trayvon_Martin_Autopsy-_Knuckle_Injury_Was_Tiny_but_Gunshot_Was_at_Intermediate_Range

Read page 3: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

Then there is Renowned forensics expert Vincent Di Maio who indicated that the teenager's sweatshirt was two to four inches away from his body at the time he was shot, meaning that Martin was leaning forward over Zimmerman when he was killed. Then the only eye witness describes
Good testified that he saw what he believed to be Martin on top of Zimmerman. "The color on top was dark and the color at bottom was…red," Good said referring to the men's clothing. At another point he told the court that the person on the bottom had "lighter skin color."
Zimmerman is a white Hispanic who was wearing a red and black jacket that night. Martin, who was black, was wearing a dark sweatshirt.
"The person on the bottom, I could hear a 'Help,'" Good said.

Do you know what this proves? Only that Zimmerman was on the bottom and Martin was on top. Does body position say how it started or who committed assault? Nope.

Under cross examination by Zimmerman's lawyer, Good said he believes he saw Martin on top punching Zimmerman "MMA style," a reference to mixed martial arts.

"The person on top was ground and pounding the person on the bottom?"asked Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara.
"Correct," said Good

Again, no evidence of it that kind of pugilism on Martin's hands or wrists...nor Zimmerman's skull for that matter.

Irony is that the only person with MMA training and a recorded history of violence here is Zimmerman.

Then there is the phone call in which you can hear someone shout for help again and again. You seem to think it's as likely somebody punching someone else is screaming for help, as much as it is the person being punched. I would say that's not really true.

I provided context and then you take it out of context. Awesome strawman, brah.

But hears what his dad had to say when he had the tapes
Serino testified that when Martin's father, Tracy Martin, first heard the tape he said it was not Trayvon. "He looked away and under his breath said, 'No,'" Serino told the court.

It's already been proven that the voice analysis is inconclusive. Some people hear Martin and some people hear Zimmerman. We can't know who was screaming just like we don't know who committed assault. THAT is a neutral stance given the evidence; not some bullshit straws you're grasping at.

A second police officer gave a similar description of Tracy Martin's reaction to the tape. Saying your scenario isn't farfetched and as likely as mine based on the evidence is clearly false. If you take a neutral standpoint it is pretty clear that Zimmerman was being striked and on bottom in a struggle. Whether he needed to shoot him i don't know. Probably he didn't. But if he did fear he could get his gun and use it on him, then i guess you can see why he did panic.

And Martin's mother said it was Trayvon. Knowing what I know about things like how sound travels through air, it's more than possible that the neighbor thought the screams were coming from a certain direction, but in reality, were coming from another. Our ears can be fooled just as easily as our eyes. THAT is another neutral stance.

And since you brought up the argument of "shit that didn't have to happen," Zimmerman could've stayed in his ing car and not only would Martin still be alive, but Zimmerman could've gone on with the rest of his mundane life instead of hiding in fear. The whole family is filled with racist pieces of shit. them all...ok, maybe not all, but definitely his father and brother.

 

[speedracer]

No it is not. The jury was instructed on the stand your ground because O'Mara asked the Judge to. The line of thinking behind this move was so if he GZ is sued in civil court, they (the jury) may be part of a separate special hearing (loophole in FL law) where if they find that GZ meets the self-defense requirements under stand your ground he is immune to civil litigation. Thus he cannot be sued for wrongful death. O'Mara covered his bases well.

It was a part of the jury charge. What you're saying doesn't make sense. That even though they were instructed to consider it, they didn't?

 

[kill3r7]

It was a part of the jury charge. What you're saying doesn't make sense. That even though they were instructed to consider it, they didn't?

It's merely trial procedure to preserve the record for appeal or in this instance for the special hearing. You don't have to take my word for it. Google it or read up on FL law. SYG had nothing to do with it. O'Mara relied simply on self-defense. He did not want to commingle the two. GZ got off on self-defense.

 

[renique46]

":Zimmerman said he left his truck to find a street sign so he would be able to tell the police dispatcher where he was. He told investigators that he was not following Martin but was "just going in the same direction he was" to find an address, but admitted that he had also left his truck to try to see in which direction Martin had gone.[184] The altercation began, he said, when Martin suddenly appeared while Zimmerman was walking back to his vehicle. He described Martin at different points in the interviews as appearing "out of nowhere," "from the darkness," and as "jump[ing] out of the bushes."[184][185] Zimmerman said that Martin asked, "You got a ing problem, homie?" Zimmerman replied no, and then Martin said that he did now, and punched him.[188] As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." (See Background sounds of yelling for help in 9-1-1 calls) Martin told him to "Shut the up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk.[185] When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherer!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.[184][184][185] Bystanders and police arrived shortly after Martin was shot.["

Still the funniest b movie horseshit ive read when it comes to this garbage.

 

[dilemna]

":Zimmerman said he left his truck to find a street sign so he would be able to tell the police dispatcher where he was. He told investigators that he was not following Martin but was "just going in the same direction he was" to find an address, but admitted that he had also left his truck to try to see in which direction Martin had gone.[184] The altercation began, he said, when Martin suddenly appeared while Zimmerman was walking back to his vehicle. He described Martin at different points in the interviews as appearing "out of nowhere," "from the darkness," and as "jump[ing] out of the bushes."[184][185] Zimmerman said that Martin asked, "You got a ing problem, homie?" Zimmerman replied no, and then Martin said that he did now, and punched him.[188] As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." (See Background sounds of yelling for help in 9-1-1 calls) Martin told him to "Shut the up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk.[185] When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherer!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.[184][184][185] Bystanders and police arrived shortly after Martin was shot.["

Still the funniest b movie horseshit ive read when it comes to this garbage.

I'd say that's probably close to what actually happenend.

On the stand your ground. This case was entirely about self defense not stand your ground.

Yet guess what liberals in the media are brainwashing people with?

''

How the NRA lobbied for 'Stand Your Ground' law that let Trayvon Martin’s killer go free''
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/how-the-nra-lobbied-for-stand-your-ground-law-that-let-trayvon-martins-killer-go-free-8710103.html

The amount of misinformation about this case is absurd.

 

[speedracer]

It's merely trial procedure to preserve the record for appeal or in this instance for the special hearing. You don't have to take my word for it. Google it or read up on FL law. SYG had nothing to do with it. O'Mara relied simply on self-defense. He did not want to commingle the two. GZ got off on self-defense.

Telling the jury to consider stand your ground is, by definition, telling them to consider a SYG defense.

What is it you don't think was said that somehow makes what you're saying true? I genuinely don't understand how you're getting from A to B.

I'm sitting right next to a litigation attorney right now. Feel free to give me the ugly version. I have a translator.

 

[dohdough]

I'd say that's probably close to what actually happenend.

On the stand your ground. This case was entirely about self defense not stand your ground.

Yet guess what liberals in the media are brainwashing people with?

''
How the NRA lobbied for 'Stand Your Ground' law that let Trayvon Martin’s killer go free''
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/how-the-nra-lobbied-for-stand-your-ground-law-that-let-trayvon-martins-killer-go-free-8710103.html

The amount of misinformation about this case is absurd.

You got that right!

But seriously, you seem really familiar...time for me to go dumpster diving.

 

[kill3r7]

Telling the jury to consider stand your ground is, by definition, telling them to consider a SYG defense.

What is it you don't think was said that somehow makes what you're saying true? I genuinely don't understand how you're getting from A to B.

I'm sitting right next to a litigation attorney right now. Feel free to give me the ugly version. I have a translator.

Be my guest, you can be the middle man between two attorneys.

O'Mara's strategy was to try the case solely on self-defense, had he moved to formally raise SYG defense, the judge would have held a separate hearing devoted to whether the law immunized GZ from criminal liabity, and the case might have ended without ever going to a jury.

O'Mara chose instead to go to trial, once again declining to specifically raise “SYG” as a defense and keeping the law out of the trial itself, knowing full well that it would be included in the jury instruction since the state of FL does not make a distinction between SYG and "self-defense". SYG is literally built into the self-defense statute in the state of FL (part of their standard jury instructions). It is my understanding that the jury instructions included the full statute.

IMO the strategic reason why O'Mara did this is at least two fold 1) he didn't have to deal with SYG head on and 2) GZ would still get the SYG civil suit benefits even though SYG was never argued.

 

[renique46]

I'd say that's probably close to what actually happenend.

On the stand your ground. This case was entirely about self defense not stand your ground.

Yet guess what liberals in the media are brainwashing people with?

''

How the NRA lobbied for 'Stand Your Ground' law that let Trayvon Martin’s killer go free''
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/how-the-nra-lobbied-for-stand-your-ground-law-that-let-trayvon-martins-killer-go-free-8710103.html

The amount of misinformation about this case is absurd.

You're a goddamn idiot.

 

[dilemna]

You're a goddamn idiot.

I'm sure nobody thinks you're an idiot.