Crush's Memorial wrestling topic

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[quote name='mykevermin']I'd like to see everyone's opinions on when the decline started.
[/QUOTE]

Cena moving to Raw.

That's when he transformed from semi-annoying rap babyface to RAPADOO HULKAMANIC IS RUNNING WILD generic superhero who is always in the main storylines of Raw.

They've buried everybody trying to (get) keep him over.

[quote name='mykevermin']As for Joe wanting to sign with WWE, let me explain it to you in a way that just occurred to me, and seems absurd in how obvious it is (in retrospect). TNA was pushing Joe to the moon - he was squashing dudes left and right, months long undefeated streak. Joe was the future of TNA and all of pro wrestling. Enter Kurt Angle: the most highly regarded wrestler of this decade, multiple time WWE champion, IC champ, tag champ. The man who has great matches with everyone.

So, when they feud, they use *JOE* to get *ANGLE* over! As if Kurt Angle *NEEDED* to beat Joe in order to prove who he is! As if Kurt Angle would have been mistaken for someone else if he did not feud with Joe, or if he would have been laughed off as a has-been. Angle's still doing this; the entire Joe/Angle feud has been this: Joe challenges Angle, Angle beats Joe. Rinse and repeat. I said this about CM Punk/Nitro the other week: when Angle has almost 4-5 pins over Joe compared to Joe's 1, if Joe were to win the title suddenly, so fuckin' what? TNA has already told us who the top dog is, and that Joe's sudden win is a matter of probability rather than talent.

Here's TNA's absurdity: they wrecked everything they invested in Samoa Joe, trying to get Kurt Angle over (as if he needed it). Think about that.
[/QUOTE]

I'm surprised you are surprised they did that.

Have you heard anybody in TNA talk about Angle? "He brought us instant legitimately!" They talk as if they were the bush leagues or something before hand.

Did you really expect them to put over there homegrown unmarketable "star" over Olympic gold medal winning, multi-world champion, Mr. Instant Legitimately, Kurt Angle?
 
THere were many declines. The first was obviously the death of WCW and the buyout. The second, for me, was 2002-2003. Triple H was on the rise and eveyrone else wasn't ( but Lesnar). Great tag teams were broken up for some odd reason. Just a bunch of stupid stuff. After that I'd want to say the John Cena era. Him moving to RAW just started a whole slew of madness with him going over anybody and everybody put infront of him. I'm thinking that around this time Eddie died ( becuase batista was on SD after they swapped HW / World title holders and batista and Eddie were going to feud ) and that was when SD was flushed down the drain. It was already doing terrible with previous storylines, but this what the thing that closed the casket atleast for me.

Everything has been pretty much the same since.

And don't even get me started on Angle. I'm actually starting to question if he even gives a damn about the business. Same for TNA, as they're making almost the exact same mistakes that WCW did. Yes, Hogan drew well, but so did Austin and Rock. I'll even say that those two drew better than hogan during 98-2000. Cheap draws don't last forever. Eventually Angle will become washed up and TNA will have nothing.
 
[quote name='Punk_Raven']I actually think that Joe could do well in WWE if they use him right.[/quote]

:lol: I'll enjoy watching him job to the Miz.
 
[quote name='Zenithian Legend']:lol: I'll enjoy watching him job to the Miz.[/quote]

Well, it looks like Rosey is coming back, and they've already got Umaga, and now Joe wants to join. They got 3 fat samoans right there. If WWE can't think of funny segments with that concept then I just don't know.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'd like to see everyone's opinions on when the decline started. [/quote]

It was gradual, and has very little to do with Cena. Losing Austin, The Rock and Foley almost overnight to retirement from regular in-ring action was what really put the ball in motion. Lesnar's abrupt departure after being built into a legitimate successor didn't help either. Add to that Eddie's untimely death, followed by one major superstar getting injured after another and what company would be in good shape?

Again, I maintain Cena has been where he's been for so long because there's no one else. Orton and Batista were too immature. Let us not forget that the WWE originally wanted Orton to be their next top guy, but had to pull the plug on that quickly when the fans chose Batista over Orton. So, WWE went with Batista, only for the fans to gradually see through the false image he projected. Batista was supposed to take Orton's spot, but instead WWE had to swap Cena with Batista. Now Cena certainly isn't connecting with any non-female fans or male fans over 8, but there's been no one else to take his spot! Until now... enter Mr. Kennedy, the saviour of WWE. Sure we're gonna need a few other top guys to work with him, but if HHH puts Kennedy over, and Cena is turned heel when the fans are cheering for Kennedy too much to deny his inevitable face turn, well we might have something worth watching again. At least for a little while.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'd like to see everyone's opinions on when the decline started. [/quote]
I think it was in 2002 when they started the brand extension that things really started to go downhill. Sure, it was a way to create competition within the company by having wrestlers exclusive to one show. But it also limits the number of wrestlers on a show, since they only have a certain amount of time on air to get the storylines to progress. Plus now with 3 brands, it's stretching the creative boards to the point where there's nothing that hasn't been done before or might be in middle of doing on another one of the brands. They're just pushing on wrestlers that are popular with the crowd right now and shoving non-sense stories in there to hope the crowds buy it if the wrestler doesn't injure himself.

All WWE is doing right now is shooting themselves in the foot until they realize to keep things fresh, they need to merge the rosters and weed out the outright awful talent(Extreme Expose). So they just have 3-4 storylines stretched across 3 shows instead of creating 10-12 storylines for 3 shows.

As for TNA, they're doing the exact same as WCW did. Bringing in former WWE talent that are past their prime, having homegrown talent job to them and expecting that bring in ratings. Now they're bringing Pacman Jones and hoping that will get non-regular viewers to watch the show. It's not and all it's doing is alienating the regular viewers. It would be like putting AJ Styles on a NFL team, no one wants to see that because he belongs in another sport.
 
I heard that Pacman Jones isn't even legally cleared to wrestle. And that if he does the NFL will sue TNA. Also, I heard that TNA fired Matt Bently to afford Pacman Jones.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I'm surprised you are surprised they did that.

Have you heard anybody in TNA talk about Angle? "He brought us instant legitimately!" They talk as if they were the bush leagues or something before hand.

Did you really expect them to put over there homegrown unmarketable "star" over Olympic gold medal winning, multi-world champion, Mr. Instant Legitimately, Kurt Angle?[/QUOTE]

Legitimacy? Their ratings haven't budged a micron in either direction, no matter who ends up on their payroll.

And for pushing Angle? NO. The WWF/E has *HISTORICALLY* always squashed/minimized ex-champs/top-card guys from other feds with very, very, very few exceptions (Flair and...?). Look what they did with Goldberg, DDP, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat ("The Dragon" version), Rhino, Tazz, Mike Awesome, and so on and so on. Non-WWE promotions have to stop this dumbass excitement over getting WWE guys. "Now people will take us seriously!" Bullshit. Do something with Matt Morgan, that's fine by me - he was never shit in WWE that people would remember, anyway. Same with Tomko. But Angle? Team 3D? Some of these ex-WWE guys need to be squashed by TNA talent, because pushing them to the moon reinforces the wrestling mentality that says "There are two kinds of promotions: the WWE and everyone else."

It's about time that another promotion shit all over an ex-WWE champion's legacy the way WWE always does with others.
 
It'll be Joe and Umaga teaming together to bring back The Islanders, managed by HOF wannabe Haku, fresh off of a legends contract.

Feel free to substitute Haku for Jimmy Snuka, Sika, or anyone else. Lord knows if you're slightly tanned, you're Samoan in the WWE.
 
I'm still convinced that they're building up Angle to build up Joe -- or, at least, I hope so.

I like that Angle won all the belts, but I can't wait until he loses them all.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Legitimacy? Their ratings haven't budged a micron in either direction, no matter who ends up on their payroll.

And for pushing Angle? NO. The WWF/E has *HISTORICALLY* always squashed/minimized ex-champs/top-card guys from other feds with very, very, very few exceptions (Flair and...?). Look what they did with Goldberg, DDP, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat ("The Dragon" version), Rhino, Tazz, Mike Awesome, and so on and so on. Non-WWE promotions have to stop this dumbass excitement over getting WWE guys. "Now people will take us seriously!" Bullshit. Do something with Matt Morgan, that's fine by me - he was never shit in WWE that people would remember, anyway. Same with Tomko. But Angle? Team 3D? Some of these ex-WWE guys need to be squashed by TNA talent, because pushing them to the moon reinforces the wrestling mentality that says "There are two kinds of promotions: the WWE and everyone else."

It's about time that another promotion shit all over an ex-WWE champion's legacy the way WWE always does with others.[/QUOTE]

That's the point.

TNA brings somebody in and they go "HOLY SHIT WE GOT *insert WWE superstar here*!!! High fives all around, everybody will have to take us seriously now!"

Vince brings somebody in and goes "Ricky Steamboat? Dusty Rhodes? That shit won't fly here. Ricky you are now THE DRAGON and Dusty....um we'll figure something out. Now go get flame-blowing lessons/polka dot clothes/sassy black women."
 
[quote name='Zenithian Legend']Carlito and Jesus I believe.[/quote]

I remember my friends kept telling me "WWE is so dumb...they've got a character named Jesus" :lol:

That didn't watch smackdown to know it was pronounced hey-soos but I got a good laugh outta that
 
[quote name='Zenithian Legend']Carlito and Jesus I believe.[/quote]

whew thanks, i totally didnt remember and its been bugging me for a few days now.
 
Well I'll be damned. My roommate was channel surfing, and wouldn't you know it, we saw La Parka on tv in a lucha libre program, dancing to MJ's "Thriller," in what looks like a 6-man tag match. This is how you fucking entertain a crowd.
 
[quote name='Mr. Beef']Well I'll be damned. My roommate was channel surfing, and wouldn't you know it, we saw La Parka on tv in a lucha libre program, dancing to MJ's "Thriller," in what looks like a 6-man tag match. This is how you fucking entertain a crowd.[/QUOTE]
Someone stole La Parka's gimmick, so it probably wasn't him.
 
[quote name='Blitz']I know this was meant for Myke but I will take a stab. [/quote]

It was actually open for anyone. :)

My answer was lost earlier today when my 1-year-old decided to mash random keys. In a nutshell:

What killed the appeal for me was the "glass ceiling." Jehrico broke through it, only to have the top story of his 5-month reign as undisputed world champ to be HHH vs. Stephanie. And he never really broke through again.

Benoit as champ was, in retrospect, pretty much a setup for Orton's face turn and subsequent feud with HHH.

Eddie Guerrero was given the title with Lesnar leaving the WWE -- and they wanted a one-shot Lesnar/Goldberg match at WM20. (GREEEEAT idea, BTW). He lost it to JBL who wasn't ready, though later became a credible champ. But anyhoo. And they were about to put it back on Eddie (when he died) only because of Batista's injuries.

RVD? A potential PR nightmare that didn't happen. They still could have done SOMETHING with him, and done it effectively. Edge? I don't know WTF they didn't do more with him than they did; he's not the best wrestler in the world but he knows how to be a dick and make people react.

And along those lines, enjoy this article that compares Cena's time as champ to HHH's domination.

TNA's no better, though. Aside from AJ styles and Sting, EVERY champ since TNA's inception has been a WWE name. As has been previously mentioned, too. TNA hasn't really "made" a star yet. Vince won't make a star out of Samoa Joe... but hell, if he can fire and re-hire both Rosey AND Jamaal, he can certainly do with the only Samoan actively wrestling that has a bit of talent.

Anyhoo, yeah, my answer is the "glass ceiling" that WWE has put in place. And the laugh I had at Jim Cornette for announcing Chris Harris will be breaking through the glass ceiling. Hasn't quite happened yet. I hope it does, but it's easier to be cynical at this point.
 
Think about every TNA champion that TNA actually established. Yeah, AJ Styles. He's Cage's lackey now.

God that was the greatest article ever.

Dirt sheets are SO awesome.
 
AJ Styles was the wrestler I saw who made me want to watch TNA. Now, yes, he's Christian's lackey.

At least I'll always have "The Best of AJ Styles" volumes 1 and 2.
 
aj is still my fav tna wrestler..i was able to get pic with him at the first fan fest.

i guess their showing the best of summerslan on dish network.. currently playing is cena edge . It seems the crowd hated cena more back then
 
[quote name='guyver2077']aj is still my fav tna wrestler..i was able to get pic with him at the first fan fest.

i guess their showing the best of summerslan on dish network.. currently playing is cena edge . It seems the crowd hated cena more back then[/QUOTE]

Wasn't that the TLC match in Edge's hometown? I think that would explain the hostility.
 
I was watching that WCW cruiserweight clip that Guile posted in the last thread (page 4) and I would love to see a 2-disc set of nothing but WCW cruisers. I know it will never (eeeeeeever) happen but it would just be incredible.
 
[quote name='Halo05']Wasn't that the TLC match in Edge's hometown? I think that would explain the hostility.[/quote]

nope it was the match where edge used the brass knucks on cena in cena's hometown...the match your talking is unforgiven

and yea, he was booed pretty badly especially for being his hometown
 
If I could pinpoint the moment when wrestling declined, I would have to say it was when the WWF changed to WWE; not the act itself, but right around that timeframe (although to me, the change didn't help matters).

I haven't watched anything wrestling in a few weeks, and haven't been following this thread much either (which I used read religiously); if Orton doesn't win tonight, I think I'll continue on this path.
 
Dragon and Morishima had a match of the year candidate last night in NYC. It was insane.

The rest of the show was underwhelming.
 
Not only is AJ one of my favorite wrestlers, my daughter loves him also. Every time she sees TNA some on (usually when she's being fussy... she is usually sleeping when it's on, she screams "AJ! AJ!" and can pick his photo out. Also tries to hug the TV when he's on. :) Anyway it hurts to see Joe, Styles, Daniels, The Machine Guns, Dutt and others being wasted. I would fuss about Lynn getting released, but I've heard he asked for it now. The X division should be what sets TNA appart. It originaly brought back memories of WCWs fantastic Cruiserweight undercard as the nWo gained popularity. Now it's a joke. The X division should be the something that makes you go "that was awesome!" every time it's on. LAX and the MCMGs should be tearing it down for the tag titles now, instead we get Team Pacman?!?!? What is Killings going to do? A freaking Handicap match? Angle might as well get Stephen Hawking to be his partner, because he can do as much as Pacman and use his voice box to say "what you got bitch?" to Jones. TNA has so much potential that is wasting.
 
[quote name='Foo228']nope it was the match where edge used the brass knucks on cena in cena's hometown...the match your talking is unforgiven

and yea, he was booed pretty badly especially for being his hometown[/QUOTE]

Ah, I see. I've never seen the Summerslam one then, I have the TLC one on the Ladder Match DVD.
 
To me, I think it was the brand split that caused a decline. It annoyed me that they were practically making me watch a certain show just to see a wrestler in a match for the week.
 
Mexican wrestler Rey Misterio Jr., the real son of Rey Misterio Sr. wrestled his first match in the United States last week in Oakland, CA. The event was held outdoors in the rain and Misterio ended up slipping and blowing his knee out. He was telling people at the show that when he got more experience under his belt, he was going to the WWE to team with the WWE's Rey Mysterio prior to Rey passing the torch to him. Mysterio had actually made that suggestion to WWE a few months back but with Mistico in mind, but it never happened.

The 18 year old Misterio Jr. is said to look identical to WWE's Mysterio with the Rey style contacts, mask and tights and even the tattoos everywhere like Mysterio.

On a related note, Misterio Jr. defeated Black Panther I a few weeks back in Mexico to capture the seventh mask of his short career, which is a lot for him already. Reports say fans in Mexico are getting tired of Misterio Jr. being shoved down their throats so bad they booed him when he won.
Click to expand...
This is some kind of Paradox, the current Rey Mysterio Jr is trying to be like the real Rey Misterio Jr (who is 14 years younger) and the real Rey Misterio Jr is trying to be like the fake one trying to be him?

:shock:
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']It's from an old Indian film that for some reason is overdubbed with some other language.[/QUOTE]

I figured that part out - my reaction was more along the lines of what you say when you see a big car wreck on the interstate and say out loud "what happened over there?" :lol:
 
[quote name='Bezerker']This is some kind of Paradox, the current Rey Mysterio Jr is trying to be like the real Rey Misterio Jr (who is 14 years younger) and the real Rey Misterio Jr is trying to be like the fake one trying to be him?

:shock:[/quote]

The real Rey Misterio Jr goes by the name El Hijo de Rey Misterio in Mexico. I've seen pics of him but have yet too see him wrestle. He's a little pudgier then Rey Jr but he may be taller. I don't think will see El Hijo de Rey in the WWE anytime soon, but I think it's only a matter of time before he starts to wrestle for one of the major Mexican promotions.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I figured that part out - my reaction was more along the lines of what you say when you see a big car wreck on the interstate and say out loud "what happened over there?" :lol:[/quote]

When I was in Pakistan over a decade ago, I saw that on television and in those films all the fight scenes are like that with overexaggerated sound effects.
 
[quote name='Foo228']
so i did some thinkin on how we could do the whole point system for our predictions: +3pts if we choose the winner(s), +1pt on if we choose the match outcome, -2pts if we choose the loser

here's an example: I predict Rey beats Chavo in a Count out.
What happens is Chavo counts Rey out, so I'd get -1...good idea?

and lets not make it too complex with outcomes (just pin, submission, count out, or dq - unless of course somebody gets ko'd somehow ;) )[/quote]

[quote name='Foo228']My list if this goes through (one can only hope...):
Cena over Orton, submission
Khali over Batista, pin
Morrison retains - Draw, double count out
Kane over Finlay, dq
Triple H over Booker, pin
Rey over Chavo, pin
Umaga over Carlito, pin
Mickie James over others, toss over top-rope...haha[/quote]

yes, kane won! 3 pts so far...
edit: now at 7 (umaga won)
make it 11, rey rey got a pin on chavo
damn it, beth phoenix won....now at 10 (-2 for wrong person, +1 for right outcome)
ahh crap, minus another 2 - morrison's match ended with him pinning punk (now at 8)
triple h pins booker! now @ 12
great, batista gets over khali with dq! (10)
superhuman cena ends up beating orton with an fu, total is 13! (not too shabby)
 
[quote name='Sporadic']So anybody know of a Summerslam stream???[/quote]

check out stickam, my friend goes to a group and a guy posts his recording...i dont know it though ;)
 
[quote name='guyver2077']lol my dish went down as soon as
stone cold
came out.. i missed it all![/quote]

i wonder if you could get a refund if something like that happens..
 
[quote name='Foo228']i wonder if you could get a refund if something like that happens..[/QUOTE]

Most likely. Or at least they'll let him watch one of the 10,000 replays.
 
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