Dragon Age II - Gen. Discussion and Info - Mark of the Assassin DLC 10/11 800 pts.

I just finished the demo and I am still excited for the sequel. The changes do make the game feel different, but still derivative of the first game. I played as a rogue and some of the moves were a bit over-the-top for my preferred tastes for this style of game, but that is not a problem. I did have a nagging sensation reminding me of the Dynasty Warrior games during some of the battles though.

I don't know which of the three classes I will play when I do the game yet, but I am leaning towards an archer or sword and board.
 
Played the demo. I could safely say that I like the new combat. Gone are the days of my character shuffling against a rushing enemy. I had the most fun playing the Rogue (felt more like playing Ninja Gaiden with flips) as I timed Evade always escape the Ogre's attack. The mage was powerful but it got boring with the constant bombardment. The warrior was pretty straightforward. Definitely going to start my game with a rogue first.

Still yet to try an Archer and Sword/Board.
 
Damnable HD streaming! I can barely piece together any of it and I can't find it on YouTube (forced Google account registration is bullshit btw) yet. ;(

Good news is I finally saw the trailer for DA: Redemption. It looks like it has potential.
 
Finished the demo and enjoyed it. My wife did ask me though after I was done if they developed implants between DA:O and DA2 as all the women seemed rather "healthy" up top from the demo.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Some further thoughts:

-The VA for the male Hawke sounds like Ralph Phines. I'd have assumed it was him but there is no way they would have paid what he would cost.

-I'm still bothered by Rogue's backstab blasting enemies into chunks of meat. Really? Is this quake? I'm all for cool fatalities and finishing moves, but make them rare so they stay cool. I gibbed or cut in half nearly every enemy I killed.

-This game feels close to a God of War with RPG elements. I have actually always wished for such a game, but they should have taken it further and just made it that.

- Did anyone else notice how rushed and buggy seemed? The explanations under each class in the class selection screen had different grammar/punctuation for male/female of the same class. Subtitles kept popping in and out of existence, especially in the end cinematic. Animation pops galore are back, classic bioware.

-From DA:O I was used to tapping the back button whenever there was a codex entry picked up to go right to it, that doesn't seem to work here. In fact, from codex to leveling up, it seems like stuff is buried deeper in the pause menu than before.

- Are there no different types of potions? I noticed there were just lyrium, stamina, health - period. And they are all on long timers. I assume that is to inject difficulty into an otherwise pretty easy hack and slash?

- Does crafting still exist?

-Still sticking with my preorder but if the demo is to go by, will probably need to play on hard, not normal, to really enjoy it.[/QUOTE]

The blowing into chunks part is part of the framed narative. The Chantry seeker at that point knows the dwarf is telling "the legend" and not the real story so she calls bullshit then you start over as it really happened. Notice no more explosions after that, just some sliced heads at times as finishing moves.

Crafting exhists, there are rune slots for enchantment and once you get past the opening level (after meeting Flemeth) I'm sure that's when enchanting starts.

The biggest thing to me is people see the exploding stuff and not realize the context its under. I think 1/2 of their userbase has never even seen Princess Bride, which they've fully admitted they got the idea for the story with.

I played Origins on Casual, but I did the proper things with managing powers, etc. and I did not have a problem with the demo. I had a NPC character fall twice (once in the battle right before the ogre and once in Isabella's "recruitment/loyalty" mission) but I did the correct tactics.

I was the off tank/DPS as a sword/shield warrior and the two-handed Warrior chick was the main tank. When the boss battles started two-handed warrior lady went at the boss, I killed all the little pests, then went to backup Bethany as the little ones swarmed her until it was just the boss left then went in to help finish him off.

One thing that was disconcerting to me, but I may just be a noob, was how bad it was when shield mastery was on. In Origins it lowered your attack power but you still made seemingly normal attacks. Now you just do stabs from behind the shield. This is probably the way it should be, but as that's the Warrior class I like I will need to read the manual to see how few points I can put into that and still get what I want out of sword/shield as I want the shield for defense/bashing purposes but I still want to be able to kill things.

The game is sped up with better graphics and some elements borrowed from the unanimous GOTY from 2010. I don't see what the major problem is. That's the reason I never go to Bioware's forums that much, even though they're my favorite developer.

If the vast majority of PC players weren't pirates, then the PC version would get developed seperately. Like some of you have said, you still have to have a base knowledge of tactics unless you want every fight to be just you against the world, you can't go full on Kratos/Master Chief/CoD guy against these enemies.
 
[quote name='Hell Monkey']Finished the demo and enjoyed it. My wife did ask me though after I was done if they developed implants between DA:O and DA2 as all the women seemed rather "healthy" up top from the demo.[/QUOTE]

That was Joe2187's major comment as well. He hadn't seen any footage before playing the demo last night (I was in party chat with him and some of our other friends.)
 
[quote name='MSUHitman']One thing that was disconcerting to me, but I may just be a noob, was how bad it was when shield mastery was on. In Origins it lowered your attack power but you still made seemingly normal attacks. Now you just do stabs from behind the shield. This is probably the way it should be, but as that's the Warrior class I like I will need to read the manual to see how few points I can put into that and still get what I want out of sword/shield as I want the shield for defense/bashing purposes but I still want to be able to kill things.[/QUOTE]

I can't comfortably classify anyone who immediately noticed this change as a 'noob', heh. Only PC S&S would have noticed the change if they chose to Tank themselves in place of Avy. It's a bit of an annoyance but I suspect it's nothing a Haste spell wouldn't circumvent.

If you're looking for a vanilla S&S should you focus on Strength and Dex first then add a little Cunning for defense and critical dmg boosts. Adjust between those three as desired. I imagine Stonewall supported by an assortment of offensive shield talents would suit your style of play more so than Shield Defense or a combination of both sustainables. The 50% dmg protection will give you about the same amount of protection for a shorter period of time (5 seconds) while freeing up stamina for more talent use. The cool down is reasonable so you can re-cast whenever you're in a jam for re-heal or other purposes. Just make sure to lead into battle casting it to get the most out of it.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']Man, the BioWare boards are in full-on civil war mode over this demo. :) It's both funny and kind of sad to see all these PC players frothing about how Dragon Age has been reinvented to appeal to Call of Duty and Madden players.[/QUOTE]I can understand what the PC players are saying but, as usual, they complain in the most childish/immature ways possible - which completely hurts their "cause". The PC version seems to take longer to "get a hold of" once you boot up the demo, almost like it is "too fast". However, it's simply a matter of getting a feel for the game, selecting a key layout that suits your playstyle, and then taking it from there. Hell, if I can get good with it on a laptop, then these people with half a room dedicated to their PC setup should have absolutely no problems getting used to the new pace of the game.

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']I'm not understanding a lot of the hate either (well... yet) but such a split among their fanbase was bound to happen. This isn't a ME1 - ME2 level change IMO; it's a fresh coat of paint, new body, full tank of gas surrounding a refurbished engine.[/QUOTE]Oh man, the change from DA:O to DA2 is much bigger than the change from ME1 to ME2 - if you ask me*. You know you're still playing a Dragon Age game when you boot up the DA2 demo (just like you know you're still playing a Mass Effect game once the action starts in ME2), but there was almost a complete redesign with this game compared to its predecessor. There's a new way of story-telling, a brand new combat system, a completely different conversation system, new way to level characters up, a different relationship system with your squadmates/allies, and more. ME2 introduced new things, too, like planetary mining, Paragon/Renegade interrupts, and what not; but Dragon Age 2 has almost completely changed everything but the basic core of the game - the importance of tactical/strategical combat. I know the popular thing to say about ME2 is that they ditched the RPG elements from ME1 (which still makes my blood pressure rise whenever I hear that), but one could argue that DA2 feels like a completely different game from DA:O and not be completely full of :bs:

*noted for the obvious (and probably well-known by now) extreme amount of bias coming from my end

And you couldn't be more right about the inevitable split down the middle of the DA fanbase. BioWare forum regulars (the ones that post often, at least) are almost of a different species of human - and that's about as polite as I can be :)
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']Oh man, the change from DA:O to DA2 is much bigger than the change from ME1 to ME2 - if you ask me*. You know you're still playing a Dragon Age game when you boot up the DA2 demo (just like you know you're still playing a Mass Effect game once the action starts in ME2), but there was almost a complete redesign with this game compared to its predecessor.[/QUOTE]
You're trippin' dog. :cool: Mass Effect's combat went from spray-and-pray with a paper-thin tacked-on "cover system" and everything under the hood being driven by stats and dice rolls, to a fully competent Gears of War-style cover shooter in which cover positioning and aiming skill are all-important. Not to mention the change from skill-specific to global cooldowns totally changing how you approach power usage, or the completely new ammo pickup and reload system. It could hardly be more different!

Dragon Age II plays exactly the same as the first, just faster and with better animation, and you have to press A every time you attack (which apparently can be toggled back to auto-attack in the full game). I will grant you that the conversation system is totally new. The level-up process seemed exactly the same to me, except that the skill trees branch now rather than being linear.
 
you have people talking about how the demo was a brainless "Press A to win" fest
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I'm sure you're talking about the people crying on the BSN boards, but if not, I was kidding when I posted that.

Just one of those things that came to mind, like when everyone was shouting "Oblivion with Guns!" for Fallout 3.
:lol:
--

Must have played the demo 12 times now, really enjoying it.
At first I was thinking of being a 2H Warrior or Mage but now the Archer is looking really good.


Btw, the Call to Arms hit 458,000.
 
[quote name='MSUHitman']The blowing into chunks part is part of the framed narative. The Chantry seeker at that point knows the dwarf is telling "the legend" and not the real story so she calls bullshit then you start over as it really happened. Notice no more explosions after that, just some sliced heads at times as finishing moves.

The biggest thing to me is people see the exploding stuff and not realize the context its under. I think 1/2 of their userbase has never even seen Princess Bride, which they've fully admitted they got the idea for the story with.
[/QUOTE]

I understand framed narrative. To ensure I was right I just went and played it again. Played the rogue past the "legend" part. Throughout the entire demo finish any enemy with a backstab and you will gib him half the time and slice him in half the other half of the time - EVERY TIME.
I'm pretty certain it's designed that way.

As a side note, I just managed to lock the demo up requiring a cold reboot. Sure hope bugs like that are not prevalent in release.

I just sort of realized this last play through that it's sort of pointless in this demo to pick anything but a melee rogue; you'll get plenty of opportunity to try out the other class types through party members if you want.
 
the demo is really fun and everything. But I wanted something like Origins. I love RPGs like that with so many small intricate stats and loot up the anus. The combat was fine in Origins. It was old school Baldur's Gate behind the scenes turn based. But yeah..i just really wanted Origins but with refinement. This is awesome too. But just different. Oh wellz.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']Oh man, the change from DA:O to DA2 is much bigger than the change from ME1 to ME2 - if you ask me*.[/QUOTE]

LOL.

When it comes to these types of debates we will always remain standing on different sides of the same fence (which is one of the many reasons I respect your opinion; no homo) because of our elaborate yet conflicting stances on what's important to us in game design.

The development goals of both games can be broken down quite easily IMO: Routine Maintenance (DA2) Vs. Deliberate Remodeling (ME2); Plastic Surgery (DA2) vs. Prosthetic Limb (ME2); Different Culdesac (DA2) Vs. Different Borough (ME2). Radical modifications to the core game play mechanics of any title is the deciding factor I use when differentiating a "full fledged" or more traditionally built sequel from one by name, universe, or lore attachment/continuation alone.

To put frankly any sequel guilty of straying too far from or replacing its core mechanics entirely aren't simply confused but readily recognized as a different game by my standards. Since most sequels tend to camouflage or downplay those changes by shifting focus to new mechanics or plot driven distractions evidence gathering is time consuming work. Still I never feel comfortable making such claims until I've touched and held every piece firmly; explored every chasm, noted every glitch, experienced every class in my own way. I usually have to feel as though I've examined every nook and cranny under a microscope before I've spoken out.

I may tear into every game I've ever played but I'll be damned if anyone claims I know absolutely nothing about them beforehand.

Now out of the list you've made only the frame narrative, conversation wheel and team oriented relations hold discussable weight. In stark comparison to DA:O however they only affect the core mechanics of the series cosmetically providing marginal alterations at best. A mended seam here, a freshly starched cuff there, a brand new tie and maybe fresh coat of polish to only pair of loafers you own to match. You may turn the heads of a few strangers but you'll look the same to the tailor and any associate who sized you up for that suit. The ripples while clearly seen and felt in this body of water will remain slight in their long term effect because they dissipate quickly.

The revamped pace of battle, minor changes and add-ons in attributes, retooled class design and even the increased damage scale while creating more noticeable ripples or waves are still incapable of inciting a full blown tsunami. The destination and the methods used to get you there haven't changed. A few of the new rules may occasionally circumvent the old ones but they neither absolve, replace or permanently negate them. You may have loosened your collar and broke free from your owner to enjoy these brief moments of "freedom," but you're still a domesticated animal.

The pacing and ease of the undergoing the process has changed not the actual process itself.

And you couldn't be more right about the inevitable split down the middle of the DA fanbase. BioWare forum regulars (the ones that post often, at least) are almost of a different species of human - and that's about as polite as I can be :)
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Sometimes it's hard not to admire the shear amount of dedication and loyalty of their more sane/intelligent regulars. They know their games inside and out while supporting a great developer in the process so I respect the enthusiasm. They also have one of the largest outspoken female fanbases I've ever seen on a forum which is wonderful. Not a small feat by any length of the imagination.

Unfortunately even the best of them still inherently lack the same amount of common sense, curiosity, care and restraint we both possess when discussing the flaws of any video game. Fact is absolute; opinion is circumstantial. It's that f*cking simple isn't it? When they can't or refuse to acknowledge reality it's no surprise why most outsiders avoid contact at all costs. No one wants to argue with a psychopath - ever.
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']no homo[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']until I've touched and held every piece firmly; explored every chasm[/QUOTE]

...

[insert punchline here]
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I understand framed narrative. To ensure I was right I just went and played it again. Played the rogue past the "legend" part. Throughout the entire demo finish any enemy with a backstab and you will gib him half the time and slice him in half the other half of the time - EVERY TIME.
I'm pretty certain it's designed that way.

As a side note, I just managed to lock the demo up requiring a cold reboot. Sure hope bugs like that are not prevalent in release.

I just sort of realized this last play through that it's sort of pointless in this demo to pick anything but a melee rogue; you'll get plenty of opportunity to try out the other class types through party members if you want.[/QUOTE]

OK, my bad. I was going to do a rogue playthrough soon I just assumed you were talking about the first section.
 
Played the demo. I find it MUCH improved from the first. Feels more like a hack and slash since you can bang on A and get mostly real time attacks. Just feels a lot more stream lined and faster paced.

I actually enjoyed the combat. Made it hard to go back to playing the first one after I finished though!

Anyway, the demo made this a must buy game for me. Not at launch as I won't be done with the DLC for the first one buy then. But I'll probably pick it up the first time it hits $40-45 on Amazon after I finish it.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Played the demo. I find it MUCH improved from the first. Feels more like a hack and slash since you can bang on A and get mostly real time attacks. Just feels a lot more stream lined and faster paced.

I actually enjoyed the combat. Made it hard to go back to playing the first one after I finished though!

Anyway, the demo made this a must buy game for me. Not at launch as I won't be done with the DLC for the first one buy then. But I'll probably pick it up the first time it hits $40-45 on Amazon after I finish it.[/QUOTE]

Told you ;)
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Played the demo. I find it MUCH improved from the first. Feels more like a hack and slash since you can bang on A and get mostly real time attacks. Just feels a lot more stream lined and faster paced.

I actually enjoyed the combat. Made it hard to go back to playing the first one after I finished though!

Anyway, the demo made this a must buy game for me. Not at launch as I won't be done with the DLC for the first one buy then. But I'll probably pick it up the first time it hits $40-45 on Amazon after I finish it.[/QUOTE]

Same Here.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Played the demo. I find it MUCH improved from the first. Feels more like a hack and slash since you can bang on A and get mostly real time attacks. Just feels a lot more stream lined and faster paced.

I actually enjoyed the combat. Made it hard to go back to playing the first one after I finished though!

Anyway, the demo made this a must buy game for me. Not at launch as I won't be done with the DLC for the first one buy then. But I'll probably pick it up the first time it hits $40-45 on Amazon after I finish it.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I just played through the demo and felt the same way.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Told you ;)[/QUOTE]

Yep, and you were definitely right! It felt a lot like Mass Effect with swords to me, which is what I was hoping for when I started up DA:O as I love ME, but prefer fantasy settings.
 
[quote name='MSUHitman']OK, my bad. I was going to do a rogue playthrough soon I just assumed you were talking about the first section.[/QUOTE]

And actually to be even more descriptive - It seems to be any class using an ability to finish a regular mob will gib it or cut it in half.

I'm going to miss the cool slower animations of DA:O finishers.
 
Bioware has continued their merciless campaign to bombard us with as much pre-launch DLC as humanly possible by introducing the Ring of Whispers. Collectibles aren't my cup of tea but enthusiasts might want to take a second or third look. Some of those pendants are gorgeous.
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Bioware has continued their merciless campaign to bombard us with as much pre-launch DLC as humanly possible by introducing the Ring of Whispers. Collectibles aren't my cup of tea but enthusiasts might want to take a second or third look. Some of those pendants are gorgeous.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, added to OP. Anything I purchased from that store would immediately be used by my wife to kill me, so no DLC for me. :(

I do hope that they bundle up all of this random crap at some point and sell it on the Marketplace for a couple bucks. The completionist in me wants to catch it all. I can't fault EA's marketing strategy though; I gave the Dead Space series another try in part because of the Dragon Age tie-in DLC, and now I'm addicted to it.
 
Actually got an email asking to do a survey for Bioware, about DLC in general and the DLC for ME2/DA:O. Seems they're curious about how folks react to and buy DLC.

Kinda told them to shove all the DLC, and that most of the crap they're charging for should be ingame to start with (Stone Prisoner, Wardens Keep, Kasumi, Appearence Packs, Weapon packs, etc).
 
[quote name='praxus07']Actually got an email asking to do a survey for Bioware, about DLC in general and the DLC for ME2/DA:O. Seems they're curious about how folks react to and buy DLC.

Kinda told them to shove all the DLC, and that most of the crap they're charging for should be ingame to start with (Stone Prisoner, Wardens Keep, Kasumi, Appearence Packs, Weapon packs, etc).[/QUOTE]

I imagine they ignore that sort of talk.
 
[quote name='basilofbkrst']I imagine they ignore that sort of talk.[/QUOTE]

If they don't want to hear how a customer honestly feels about their DLC they shouldn't send out survey invites...LOL.
 
[quote name='uglyteradon']One of my friends was ranting about how much he disliked the demo... I think he was offended that I liked it.[/QUOTE]

Dare I ask the reasoning behind his tirade? My world didn't end when ME2 disappointed me and neither will his because of DA2. At least I hope not.
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Dare I ask the reasoning behind his tirade? My world didn't end when ME2 disappointed me and neither will his because of DA2. At least I hope not.[/QUOTE]

Well he had originally played Dragon Age on PC and had been one of the people who were waiting years for that game. I'm aware that the PC version is a much different game and that he considered the console side to be pretty watered down. I think what really got him were the animations for the rogue and how streamlined they had made the combat. I'm not sure what else they had changed or PC players, but he didn't seem to care for either my roommates or my comments on the demo.

He had said something about the way the party controls and how useless certain skills had become. Honestly, I consider him to be a tad bit more dedicated and hardcore than me when it comes to the first game. I think he had beaten it half a dozen times or so.
 
[quote name='praxus07']Actually got an email asking to do a survey for Bioware, about DLC in general and the DLC for ME2/DA:O. Seems they're curious about how folks react to and buy DLC.

Kinda told them to shove all the DLC, and that most of the crap they're charging for should be ingame to start with (Stone Prisoner, Wardens Keep, Kasumi, Appearence Packs, Weapon packs, etc).[/QUOTE]

Took the same survey. While I was honest with DLC ratings, in the comments section I gave them an earful (eyeful?) about taking away my Starfang Greatsword.
chairfall.gif



Got my nephew to play the demo, liked it. The one thing he hated with Origins was how slow paced it was- turn, waddle, slash slash, waddle.
Next up, going to get my brother to try it.
 
[quote name='uglyteradon']He had said something about the way the party controls and how useless certain skills had become. Honestly, I consider him to be a tad bit more dedicated and hardcore than me when it comes to the first game. I think he had beaten it half a dozen times or so.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget to mention that he's on the Dragon Age II dev team! I mean, he must be if he's already played the full game. After all, no one would make a judgment about the usefulness of skills based on only playing the first half hour, right? That would be silly.

;)

(And yes, I know that the entire purpose of a demo is let you know what the full game is going to be like, so if there's anything misleading about it, that's nobody's fault but BioWare's. But come on, let's use some common sense about what judgments we can fairly make about the full game based on playing the first level only. Graphics and sound, yup. Voice acting, sure. Overall pace and flow of combat, yes. But anything past that gets pretty questionable. I saw someone on the BW board actually griping about how their conversation choices didn't have large enough consequences... over the course of a 45-minute demo. I mean, come on.)
 
[quote name='uglyteradon']Well he had originally played Dragon Age on PC and had been one of the people who were waiting years for that game. I'm aware that the PC version is a much different game and that he considered the console side to be pretty watered down. I think what really got him were the animations for the rogue and how streamlined they had made the combat. I'm not sure what else they had changed or PC players, but he didn't seem to care for either my roommates or my comments on the demo.

He had said something about the way the party controls and how useless certain skills had become. Honestly, I consider him to be a tad bit more dedicated and hardcore than me when it comes to the first game. I think he had beaten it half a dozen times or so.[/QUOTE]

Ah... so when console users get the short end of the stick (PC focused development for Origins; ported to consoles) it's cool but when the situation changes (Console focused development for DA2; ported to PC) it's okay to throw a tantrum?

...Riiiiighhht.

Certain skills have become useless? Which ones and how much time did he really spend playing the demo? I don't recall Pinning Shot doing an extra 185+ damage to enemies on impact or Fireball having a lightning fast 10 second cool down rate in Origins. Almost every talent from DA:O received a significant buff to survive in this new pace of combat. Even Mind Blast was vastly improved and it still sucks as AOE until upgraded so I'll give THAT one.

The party controls haven't changed at all from Origins. It's just that your friend was suffering from mild delusions at the time. The only credible complaints I imagine aren't fueled by the seething tears in his eyes are the revamped pace of combat and Power Ranger-esque animations for everyone. Hardly game breaking for most who still recognize the original core mechanics at work, but at least I can find some shred of decent logic buried behind all the potential bullshit.

As for him being so "hardcore" (he isn't the only one with a DA 1750 achievement score) as to completely ignore conflicting opinions what you were dealing with there was a classic case of fan entitlement syndrome. Bioware should have contacted him before initiating creative control over their creation which they chose to develop, market, and sell to the rest of us. You didn't know any better.

I swear... people are going to have to lay down some solid specific grievances regarding this demo or development of the sequel before I even begin to take them seriously.

Oh, and I second Hell Monkey to the utmost degree. Witch Hunt was f*cking disgraceful and David Gaider along with the remaining writing staff should have been ashamed for promoting it. A homeless man would have gotten more out of $7 I practically threw away for the vaguest reassurance that I'll reunite with both the Warden and Morrigan at some point. You know for a game where the universe is the "main character."

...

fuck.
 
[Note: I'm really pressed for time today, so the "quality" of my response will surely suffer from it. However, I did want to toss a few words in because we are talking about Mass Effect 2 (my favorite son game :lol:) and there were a couple of other things that popped up and caught my eye.][quote name='Ink.So.Well.']LOL.

When it comes to these types of debates we will always remain standing on different sides of the same fence (which is one of the many reasons I respect your opinion; no homo) because of our elaborate yet conflicting stances on what's important to us in game design.[/QUOTE]That must be one sturdy-ass fence then, to not only be able to not topple over with my raging Mass Effect-ism but to also withstand the push back from your opposition. It is nice to feel an air of diplomacy around a debate, instead of me wanting to stab the first person who says "derp, ME2 isn't an RPG".

I will say, though, that the grass is greener on my side of the fence :booty::cool:.

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']The development goals of both games can be broken down quite easily IMO: Routine Maintenance (DA2) Vs. Deliberate Remodeling (ME2); Plastic Surgery (DA2) vs. Prosthetic Limb (ME2); Different Culdesac (DA2) Vs. Different Borough (ME2). Radical modifications to the core game play mechanics of any title is the deciding factor I use when differentiating a "full fledged" or more traditionally built sequel from one by name, universe, or lore attachment/continuation alone.[/QUOTE]I believe it's better to say it like this (comparing the transition from Origins to 2 with the that of ME1 to ME2): Complete Overhaul (DA2) vs. Optimization (ME2); Breast Enhancement Surgery and Tummy-Tuck (DA2) vs. Switching to Contacts After Wearing Glasses (ME2); Selling Your Station Wagon and Buying a Lamborghini (DA2) vs. Buying the Sports Package for Your GT-R Skyline and Putting It Through Stage-1 Tuning (ME2).

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Now out of the list you've made only the frame narrative, conversation wheel and team oriented relations hold discussable weight. In stark comparison to DA:O however they only affect the core mechanics of the series cosmetically providing marginal alterations at best. A mended seam here, a freshly starched cuff there, a brand new tie and maybe fresh coat of polish to only pair of loafers you own to match. You may turn the heads of a few strangers but you'll look the same to the tailor and any associate who sized you up for that suit. The ripples while clearly seen and felt in this body of water will remain slight in their long term effect because they dissipate quickly.[/QUOTE]It's more than just trimming that unsightly nosehair and clipping your fingernails. You're taking the marginal employee who comes in with his wrinkly shirt untucked, hair in a mess, and his stick it to corporate attitude in full swing and fitting him into a custom tailored suit, slicking his hair back, moving him into his own office near the top floor, and giving him his own parking spot as well as an adequate share of stock in the company. Sure, you can argue that all of that is cosmetic/material stuff and that it's technically the same man underneath all that - but there's going to be a definite personality change with this guy, and he's certainly not going to be the same person after all of these adjustments.

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']The revamped pace of battle, minor changes and add-ons in attributes, retooled class design and even the increased damage scale while creating more noticeable ripples or waves are still incapable of inciting a full blown tsunami. The destination and the methods used to get you there haven't changed. A few of the new rules may occasionally circumvent the old ones but they neither absolve, replace or permanently negate them. You may have loosened your collar and broke free from your owner to enjoy these brief moments of "freedom," but you're still a domesticated animal.[/QUOTE]The recent public reaction to this demo would disagree with your weather forecast (not counting just the BioWare forums, because they can't be used as a good example for anything). People who are talking about the demo have already shown some strong feelings one way or the other, regarding the changes made to the game, and they seem a lot more polarized than I remember them being after playing Origins. Whether they're right or wrong, or even rational or irrational, these changes are very noticeable and they (BioWare) are definitely going to garner more love for these changes, but also receive a bit of backlash for it. Of the handful of friends I have who play games on a day-to-day basis, 2 of them have already dropped their anti-Dragon Age banners after playing the demo - and believe me, nothing short of a tsunami was necessary for these people to switch their allegiances. There's even a handful of people so far in this thread saying somewhat similar things. Now, if your argument is "these things shouldn't cause a sudden shift in the Earth's gravitational field" and not just "they aren't/won't", then we'd be much more in agreement.

Also, Dragon Age is more than a domesticated animal now, because they packed a lot of energy into the sequel and gave the series a soul (combat-wise).

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Sometimes it's hard not to admire the shear amount of dedication and loyalty of their more sane/intelligent regulars. They know their games inside and out while supporting a great developer in the process so I respect the enthusiasm. They also have one of the largest outspoken female fanbases I've ever seen on a forum which is wonderful. Not a small feat by any length of the imagination.

Unfortunately even the best of them still inherently lack the same amount of common sense, curiosity, care and restraint we both possess when discussing the flaws of any video game. Fact is absolute; opinion is circumstantial. It's that f*cking simple isn't it? When they can't or refuse to acknowledge reality it's no surprise why most outsiders avoid contact at all costs. No one wants to argue with a psychopath - ever.[/QUOTE]It is kind of enjoyable sometimes digging through the desert full of raging lunatics on the BioWare boards to find that shining gem of a poster who not only shines as bright as the sun compared to those around him/her, but also increases your knowledge of the game as much or more as that diamond would increase your bank account. That being said...maaaaan can it be frustrating sometimes, too. I can't count the number of times I've clicked away from some of those threads with a headache and a sick feeling in my stomach :lol:

[quote name='Ryuukishi']...

[insert punchline here][/QUOTE]:rofl:

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']My world didn't end when ME2 disappointed's greatness escaped me and neither will his because of DA2. At least I hope not.[/QUOTE]Fixed.

(guilty pleasure...sorry)

[quote name='Ryuukishi']You're trippin' dog. :cool:

Dragon Age II plays exactly the same as the first, just faster and with better animation, and you have to press A every time you attack (which apparently can be toggled back to auto-attack in the full game). I will grant you that the conversation system is totally new. The level-up process seemed exactly the same to me, except that the skill trees branch now rather than being linear.[/QUOTE]I can sit here and generalize and say that ME2 is the same as ME1 with a few minor additions, too ;)

We both know that DA2 is more than just DA:O with a 1.5x speed mod turned on.

[quote name='Hell Monkey']I hope you guys all said Witch Hunt sucked balls.[/QUOTE]Me whenever I hear the phrase "Witch Hunt" (referring to the DLC): :cold: + :wall: + :twoguns: + :puke: + :nottalking: + :bomb:
 
WOW I'm going to have to spend some time reading some of the past few pages. Anyway this might have been talked about but is their a way to beat the demo? I downloaded it and have been playing as a mage on all runs and when I get to the boss fight I die fast.
 
Yes, you can "beat" it by getting past that boss fight (the one with the guy and the one mage). I died a few times there myself before getting past it.

I was a warrior and just ignored the mage and let my party take him down and then join me in taking down the main boss guy (name is eluding me) and finally got past it.

Oops, never mind, I was thinking of the end of Leliana's song that I had some trouble with (I played it right after). I didn't have any problems with the demo, had some party members died but didn't get any game overs.
 
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[quote name='Hell Monkey']Is this the kind of stuff in the Bioware forums these days? (I haven't been there in quite awhile)[/QUOTE]
Awesome. :lol:

It's actually kind of the opposite on the forums though... everything is about how Origins was the most sophisticated, intelligent, classy, and overall perfect game ever and any change that DA2 makes to its formula is intended to make it dumb enough for Madden-swilling console retards to play.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']Awesome. :lol:

It's actually kind of the opposite on the forums though... everything is about how Origins was the most sophisticated, intelligent, classy, and overall perfect game ever and any change that DA2 makes to its formula is intended to make it dumb enough for Madden-swilling console retards to play.[/QUOTE]Some of the arguments used when ME2 went the way it did. We all saw how that ended up, now didn't we?
 
Like I said, I'm happy with these changes just like I was with ME2.

But I never liked the Balder's Gate type of games. Even KOTOR was a struggle to get through and I only slogged through for the story. I just hate that kind of combat system, tactical planning etc.

I get that PC-RPGs love that stuff, and it sucks that it seems to be a dying genre. But hey, if they didn't pirate everything maybe PC gaming wouldn't be on such a drastic decline.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Like I said, I'm happy with these changes just like I was with ME2.

But I never liked the Balder's Gate type of games. Even KOTOR was a struggle to get through and I only slogged through for the story. I just hate that kind of combat system, tactical planning etc.

I get that PC-RPGs love that stuff, and it sucks that it seems to be a dying genre. But hey, if they didn't pirate everything maybe PC gaming wouldn't be on such a drastic decline.[/QUOTE]
The thing that's funny to me is that DA2 actually didn't change the battle system all that much. They basically just made it move faster...
 
Does anyone know if Bioware said how it is goign to work with the import.

If I import an Origins game with a Warden who kicked it, but then imported him to Awakenings, Golems, and Witch Hunt (since you have to use the same warden) how they are going to explain it story wise?
 
[quote name='Hell Monkey']Does anyone know if Bioware said how it is goign to work with the import.

If I import an Origins game with a Warden who kicked it, but then imported him to Awakenings, Golems, and Witch Hunt (since you have to use the same warden) how they are going to explain it story wise?[/QUOTE]
I think it's more of a "world import"-- stuff like which dwarf ruler you installed and who is the king/queen of Ferelden is what will matter. I doubt the Warden will even get much of a mention.

BioWare has already said that they will just retcon any potential inconsistencies between the import and what they want for DA2. For instance, IIRC it's possible to get Anders killed in Awakening, but he's not going to be dead in DA2 if you try to import that.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']That must be one sturdy-ass fence then, to not only be able to not topple over with my raging Mass Effect-ism but to also withstand the push back from your opposition.[/QUOTE]

Only the best Adamantium-Virbranum blend fictional billionaires could buy and super-villains aspire to steal my friend. :cool:

It is nice to feel an air of diplomacy around a debate, instead of me wanting to stab the first person who says "derp, ME2 isn't an RPG".
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Oh I'm sure you'll want to shank me soon enough. Everyone does eventually. Oh, and it is an RPG... but barely (in relation to my personal preferences).

You could never categorize me with the likes of those inconsolable fanatical types (which is exactly what where dealing with when it comes to the DA2 split). Fans so blinded by their superiority complexes they forgo reading the entire book then delight in criticizing its cover while glossing over the epilogue. Much to my dismay however the elements they decided against re-purposing in development weren't enough for me to enjoy playing the game. Too few in their appearance, too thinly stretched alongside new dominate mechanics, too reserved in their short and long term effect for my personal tastes.

Eh, shit happens.

I will say, though, that the grass is greener on my side of the fence :booty::cool:.
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I imagine each blade is distinctly sharper on mine though neither of us could qualify as a neutral party when it comes to critiquing our pastures. ;)

I believe it's better to say it like this (comparing the transition from Origins to 2 with the that of ME1 to ME2): Complete Overhaul (DA2) vs. Optimization (ME2); Breast Enhancement Surgery and Tummy-Tuck (DA2) vs. Switching to Contacts After Wearing Glasses (ME2); Selling Your Station Wagon and Buying a Lamborghini (DA2) vs. Buying the Sports Package for Your GT-R Skyline and Putting It Through Stage-1 Tuning (ME2).
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Totally agree to disagree here because of our differences in perspective. We've both come to terms with the neon pink and yellow freckle faced elephant standing in the room, sure. In relation to the demo, however, I prefer to ignore the blatant distraction its face provides entirely while you may not.

It's more than just trimming that unsightly nosehair and clipping your fingernails. You're taking the marginal employee who comes in with his wrinkly shirt untucked, hair in a mess, and his stick it to corporate attitude in full swing and fitting him into a custom tailored suit, slicking his hair back, moving him into his own office near the top floor, and giving him his own parking spot as well as an adequate share of stock in the company. Sure, you can argue that all of that is cosmetic/material stuff and that it's technically the same man underneath all that - but there's going to be a definite personality change with this guy, and he's certainly not going to be the same person after all of these adjustments.
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You're kidding right? When the exact frame of time is little more than a few hours to a day or two tops how can the dominate side of his psyche possibly disappear? His stick it to corporate attitude hasn't deteriorated overnight; it has simply evolved for the time being. Reasonably subdued whenever the situation demands it, but such powerful anti-authoritative sentiment can't simply be wished away, mislead, or bought off so easily. Change takes time. Without it one can immediately argue and recognize its existence behind closed doors. Especially if the catalyst behind those ideals (tyrant of a boss, terrible coworkers, questionable work conditions) hasn't undergone a dramatic change along with it.

Showering the laziest or most mistreated employee with an increased sense of responsibility or fatter paycheck isn't necessarily going to curb all of their poor habits, rage and resentment at once. It's more likely to reinforce a much wider range of non-productivity due to a greater sense of importance the company has instilled into the employee. I mean sure he might get a little more work done every now and again when he knows he's being watched. This much is certain if he aims to profit through continuing the charade. However now he'll exercise even less restraint whenever he mouths off to his coworkers or extends his lunch break by another hour because his superiors have deemed him "irreplaceable."

I think this is exactly the type of scenario we're dealing with here.

The demo is still the daughter of the same CEO (core Origins mechanics) who didn't give a shit about you then, but can't afford to lose you now, so he decided to finally make good on those long forgotten promises. His overall opinion of you however hasn't changed. He may have presented you a new office he can stroll in and out of unannounced, but you still have to knock before you enter his. You may eagerly invite him to your home for dinner now, but he'd never extend the same for an all expenses paid weekend of moral debauchery in Vegas. You aren't on a first name basis and he wouldn't cover the cost of the commute if you were riding in the same taxi together. He'd naturally expect you to treat him because he's still sitting in a dominate position of power. It's still his building, his company, his rules, his final decision over yours.

So while those perks may have boosted your self esteem or significantly elevated you above your piers, you still aren't playing at his level of the game by any length of the imagination. The power players summoned a more comfortable chair with a better view of the action for you. Nothing more judging from demo.

The recent public reaction to this demo would disagree with your weather forecast (not counting just the BioWare forums, because they can't be used as a good example for anything). People who are talking about the demo have already shown some strong feelings one way or the other, regarding the changes made to the game, and they seem a lot more polarized than I remember them being after playing Origins. Whether they're right or wrong, or even rational or irrational, these changes are very noticeable and they (BioWare) are definitely going to garner more love for these changes, but also receive a bit of backlash for it. Of the handful of friends I have who play games on a day-to-day basis, 2 of them have already dropped their anti-Dragon Age banners after playing the demo - and believe me, nothing short of a tsunami was necessary for these people to switch their allegiances. There's even a handful of people so far in this thread saying somewhat similar things. Now, if your argument is "these things shouldn't cause a sudden shift in the Earth's gravitational field" and not just "they aren't/won't", then we'd be much more in agreement.
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Still going to have to agree to disagree when the crux of their arguments haven't evolved past a snap critiquing of aesthetic modification at breakneck speed. Such reactions prove many of them have fallen so deeply for the illusion of a dynamic shift in genre balance they haven't any interest in delving deeper for a single shred of concrete proof. I haven't seen anyone provide me a single strong counter-argument as to how those changes undermine, override, effectively REPLACE the core game play mechanics themselves. Not of those surrounding or contributing to them.

It's pretty damn pointless trying to convince someone with a fear of flight to board a plane when they've avoided or flat out refused treatment. I'm certainly not going to waste my time pointing out a Ferris Wheel to blind man, but I'll happily describe it to him if asked.

Also, Dragon Age is more than a domesticated animal now, because they packed a lot of energy into the sequel and gave the series a soul (combat-wise).
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How so when said animal retains fond memories of the hands that fed and nurtured it? The game has always had a soul, X, and the demo has provided a substantial amount of proof it hasn't gone anywhere yet (IMO). I honestly feel like those of us who realize this stuck around long enough to capture the love and affection shown when an owner reunites with a beloved pet on camera. We didn't just leave after it broke free and carried on with the rest of our day with it fresh in our minds.

At the end of the day though we're both speaking in absolutes about a demo so we'll see how it really is in the weeks to come. I'm fully prepared to eat crow should I find any truth to a gigantic disconnect between the old and supposedly new core mechanics. When it comes to anything else though not so much.
 
I wanted to get in on the DA2 discussion, but ended up writing more than I wanted on the DA2 demo, so it's in my blog as well, but thought I'd post it here since I'm curious as to what other DA fans think of the new game.



Mixed feelings here, to say the least. Not a deep write up, just kind of winged this as I thought about it.


The demo really didn't showcase much, but the feel of the game is pretty clear at this point. The game almosts seems a bit Eastern influenced with the more hack-n-slash approach to combat and the design of the main characters (asian razor cut on female Hawke, haha). Still, I do like the default designs of the Champion -- both look pretty badass.

Aside from primary characters though, secondary characters still look incredibly generic. Males and females reuse the same model, so it almost feels like an MMO as opposed to a dedicated single-player experience (old women still have the same bodies as young women, for example). Hair looks terrible, save for your own.

In terms of cinematics I'm impressed and turned off at the same time. It's obviously going for a more movie-like approach like how Mass Effect changed with its sequel -- but with Dragon Age it just feels incredibly awkward. Cutscenes stutter in between frame changes, dialogue is stilted and unnatural despite some really great voice work, and animations are of the most basic level. The demo was clearly jumping around though to give you a look into other parts of the game, so perhaps the full game will flow more smoothly. The original had great side stories even with the poorly made cinematics, but it's still strange to see the huge difference in effort Bioware puts towards DA as opposed to their ME franchise.

Character interaction and dialogue is still too hard to judge at this point. I feel the dialogue wheel will make that portion of the game less deep than the original's -- but that's what they are obviously going for, so you're either a fan or you're not. As said before, the cinematics really weren't that great and the demo introduced characters and killed them off seconds later so it was really hard to care when they tried to pull the drama card on you. Just seemed like filler so you can play with moral decisions -- hopefully that doesn't become a staple of the game.

Combat is...interesting. I played a warrior just to get a basic gist of it. Since the game is more fast-paced and mechanically focused, the Tactics menu will probably get 200x more use than the original's did. People are going to want to run around playing Dynasty Warrior and won't want to worry about using the clumsy party command interface that DA2 seems to be sporting right now -- so hopefully the tactics menu will be easy to use. It's much more action-focused and I was impressed by the battle animations. Not too much to say about the combat in general though, since the demo really just gave you the most basic of battles to play around with. Hacking away and spamming cool-downs isn't really enough to understand the full game at this point. Warriors tend to be a boring class, but hopefully there's more to the encounters than slashing and pausing for the occasional health pot.

The game does not feel as smooth as a dedicated action game which makes sense, but at the same time it occasionally feels a bit cheap given the overall presentation -- and it may just be me, but I feel the game stutters.

No effort was made to make the A.I. adapt to the new combat type, it seems. Attacking is attacking. There's no interesting animations from the enemy or intricacy to the melee, it's just slashing. While this really isn't an actual issue, as many games do this, I'm curious as to how interesting Bioware will be able to make the encounters beyond stepping out of the way of thrown boulders and potion spamming.

I'm a fan of the skill trees, just seems more satisfying than the previous interface. Moves will no doubt look cooler in DA2, so that's always something to look forward to. They do not let you mess with the inventory screen in the demo, but for the love of god it better be improved over the original.

Overall, I'm definitely going to hold out here. I think it's cool Bioware is trying to be more trendy with it's new games, but with DA2 I'm rather bummed out on how old the game looks. It's not insulting to the eyes but boy does it look dated. I think the new combat and dialogue will make some more fans, but I'm not entirely confident that Bioware will have a cool story in place here, based on their recent works. A big concern here is that the first Dragon Age worked around its poor presentation with great side plots and amazing lore. DA2 looks to be more superficial in that respect, so consider me worried.

Thoughts on the demo? Did it feel a bit..unpolished to anyone else?
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Hair looks terrible, save for your own.[/QUOTE]
You can always tell the JRPG people by the way they fixate on the hair... :lol: No, I feel you, hair is important. :applause:
 
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