Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Out Now on PS3 & PS4 - 4/11: PS3-to-PS4 Transfer Live!

Jodou said:
And then this was posted on bard dps. My god, if those parses are accurate then we have much bigger problems than a stance that doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Its the nerf to Det (which affects our autos) and barrage that hit us the hardest and the fact that we can't use two great abilities because of how pointless it is to use WM in a raid setting, we were only behind melee by like 70 DPS pre 3.0, now its more towards 300-400 since a similar skilled and geared DRG can parse for 1250. Its an insane gap is dps.

Machinist at similar gear are starting to pull mid 900's too, so they definitely need to rework BRD a bit.

The only way you see a increase in DPS using WM in a raid setting is if you were bad at strafing pre 3.0, but that just means you werent playing correctly lol

 
Yeah, bard is in a really bad spot now and needs addressing before Alex releases.  It's pretty unacceptable they could allow this to go live after people have been begging for a PTR for years.  It makes me so sad that we've fallen so far behind at the expense of being support.

 
Well I am. Bard is suppose to be a support job more than a DPS job.

If you want to be a DPS, then be a DPS.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
ChalupaBatman said:
This is probably just your excuse to do shit dps

BRD is a DPS class with support abilities, not the other way around.

If you think its okay to do 400 dps less that other classes then maybe you should play PLD or something.
Click to expand...
Oh ok, so I guess you already know how well I do or don't play my job. Excuse me who are you exactly?

 
Deader2818 said:
Oh ok, so I guess you already know how well I do or don't play my job. Excuse me who are you exactly?
Click to expand...
Honestly, I can tell just how you react that you really do not know how to play your class, theres no way in hell you think that its good at its current state because it isn't and thats a fact. Thats how I know how well you play your class.

And who are you? Telling people to play a different game/class?

And I edited my op since I noticed it was kinda mean, but I think its fine now considering all the ignorant things you have been saying.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
ChalupaBatman said:
Honestly, I can tell just how you react that you really do not know how to play your class, theres no way in hell you think that its good at its current state because it isn't and thats a fact. Thats how I know how well you play your class.

And who are you? Telling people to play a different game/class?
Click to expand...
Alright, lol im sure people on my server beg to differ since i usually always parse near the top before 3.0 and have had a lot of people tell me how well a I play bard but please, keep your head up your ass.

 
ChalupaBatman said:
Honestly, I can tell just how you react that you really do not know how to play your class, theres no way in hell you think that its good at its current state because it isn't and thats a fact. Thats how I know how well you play your class.

And who are you? Telling people to play a different game/class?

And I edited my op since I noticed it was kinda mean, but I think its fine now considering all the ignorant things you have been saying.
Click to expand...
I don't think he realizes he's talking to two server first coil bards on high pop servers lol.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must be from Jenova, but nah seriously, I apologize for calling you bad. There really isn't a right way to play, people don't have to play optimally to enjoy the game. 

 
You must be from Jenova, but nah seriously, I apologize for calling you bad. There really isn't a right way to play, people don't have to play optimally to enjoy the game. 

 
Jodou said:
I don't think he realizes he's talking to two server first coil bards on high pop servers lol.
Click to expand...
Nah, I got 2nd SCoB and 3rd/4th FCoB I think.

I just got my Hive Bow, its pretty beast. 83 Crit, had to do 10 runs of Ravana Ex to get it though, thank god for the token system.

 
ChalupaBatman said:
Nah, I got 2nd SCoB and 3rd/4th FCoB I think.

I just got my Hive Bow, its pretty beast. 83 Crit, had to do 10 runs of Ravana Ex to get it though, thank god for the token system.
Click to expand...
Nice, yeah I'm behind on extremes because I let my MSQ's sit on the back burner and was 60 before even finishing the hinterlands lol. Finally got to the last quest last night but with A ranks popping off and being a slave to the miner/botany nodes every 35 mins has made it hard to progress. I really love that I've spent maybe a day or two dedicated to leveling gatherers and I'm already hitting 54 on those classes lol. Such a relief considering the cancer that was 2.0 gathering without 100 leves to dig into. Pissed I missed out on the 2.0 leve train for crafting though; they nerfed the 45 leves after EA and I didn't get a chance to do them since it was push for 60 or die. I really hate when devs do that, because the people who abused it got their crafts to 60 easy and the rest of us will have to suffer through it the normal way. :S

The token system is going to be so nice and I'll have to look through my old posts on here but I could swear what they gave us is exactly what I had proposed at some point, even the number of kills to get a weapon. Oh yeah, I remember now: I was saying they should tie the 10 clears achivement in coil to getting a token for a free weapon because I never (and to this day still don't have it) got the T9 bow. What was the real slap in the face was me getting the T13 bow rather quickly, only to replace it a few days later with the 135 relic. All my luck in this game went into my fenrir mount, rip.

 
Little late to the party but i179 HYPE!  Just need to clear Rav Ex next, been once and saw final phase but was only in for an hour heh.  IS IT EXPANSION YET?!

RlNK1da.png


 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hotfix: An issue wherein bards would be temporarily unable to perform actions under certain conditions.

Good start, now fix the part where bards are doing awful dps and had actions accidentally replaced with BLM skills.

And right after I posted this, I was heard!

Wanderer's Minuet:
Development team is aware of the following:
Generally, DPS is larger when not under Minuet.
Bards' specialty of "Ability to attack while moving" is impacted when under Minuet, hard to see benefits of being in Minuet.
Unwieldy to change stances.
Due to the degree to which the above points are felt by the community, especially the first point (Less damage in Minuet), the development team is looking into changes.

They're looking to change the effect (but not increase damage too much), make it easier to switch between stances, and reduce the difficulty and general clunkiness with the current Bard.

Warden's Paean:
Generally treated as hard to use/low value, development team is looking into it.

Bloodletter Bug:
Fixed in hotfix.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oh, on another note: testing on Sks was done and proven to NOT affect dot potency (for at least windbite).  Krietor posted a video comparing dot ticks of a difference of ~80 Sks (using slaying jewelry so as not to increase dex) and there was zero variance.  Does this not go against what they told us?  Either something was lost in translation or the margins for actual potency increase are too high to even be worth pursuing.  In essence, Sks is still our worst stat and pending the changes coming to WM, I don't see that changing.

WTB horizontal progression next week, because right now everything is OiS. . .

 
Originally was told this wouldn't come down til the end of July's marketing, but the regional manager went through yesterday and told them to get rid of it, so I grabbed this at Gamestop today:



They also gave me one of the Heavensward flag things and a J Stars artbook as they said they got way more in of both than they had pre-orders for.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So the changes to WM:

・Action category has been changed from spell to ability.
・Damage increase has been increased from 20% to 30%.
・Cast time has been reduced from 3 to 0 seconds.
・Recast time has been increased from 2.5 to 15 seconds.

Am I happy with these changes?  Not really.  Do they solve the underlying issues? Nope.  SE has doubled-down on WM now so going forward they will only continue to punish players further for not using WM.  This my way or the highway attitude is exactly why I dumped WoW and Blizzard for good.  I've just resigned myself to not caring about dps and playing how I want to, without WM.  Plenty of other things to do in the game and jobs to finish leveling so I can't be fussed about them destroying mine anymore.  Hell, maybe I'll swap main roles to raid if I care to, which is really fucking sad.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The DPS increase is alright though, but MCH is way better than BRD now since 90% of their abilities while in GB they can use while moving.

So I'm playing Nin now while our old Nin plays MCH.

 
My god the nerf to sidewinder was harsh.  Previously I was hitting 6k crits on Rav Ex during his burn phase and now I can barely muster 3k (still working on getting hive bow because I've been busy IRL).  Why do they hate us bards so much? :(

On a side note, I gave WM a college effort in Rav Ex and even with the changes to being instant, I just can't wait to take it off.  IDK why but I get anxious when it's on, like 'shit shit, what if I need to move DPS LOSS' and sure enough the second I need to move for mechanics I just turn it off and breathe a sigh of relief lol.  Guess I'm weird but it's that internal struggle of feeling like every time I need to move WM needed to be off, but that long 15s is so daunting.

That and it's still clunky as fuck.  Everytime I see BL off CD or proc mid-cast I'm just livid trying to spam and use it.  WM needs to go, period.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've been using it with no issue and cleared all of Alex. I've had a groups even asking me to get into thier statics.

I guess I get you guys just dont enjoy the style change but personally it hasn't bothered me at all. Maybe its because im already used to casting and moving. My floor 4 clear even had 2 bards in the group and we cleared it easily.

Other high end bards I've talked to on my server have gotten used to it as well and dont have a real issue with it.

I am sorry for the people who aren't happy with it or enjoy it but looks like the new play style is here to stay. Honestly imo probably best to just cut your loses and see if there is another job you may enjoy better. No amount of anger is going to get SE to change bard back to how you personally enjoyed it.
 
I'm just really sad they did this and there was no call for it.  They will eventually change it as the bard population dies due to overcomplexity for no reward when other classes parse 1-200 dps higher and have complete freedom of movement other than positionals.  Only BLM I feel needs some love with dependency on ley lines now.  Every other class is for the most part happy with some aspect of what they got and yet bards are just left in the dust with nothing, especially now that sidewinder sucks.  In all my years of MMO gaming, I have never had my main class so utterly destroyed for me like this.

 
Jodou said:
I'm just really sad they did this and there was no call for it. They will eventually change it as the bard population dies due to overcomplexity for no reward when other classes parse 1-200 dps higher and have complete freedom of movement other than positionals. Only BLM I feel needs some love with dependency on ley lines now. Every other class is for the most part happy with some aspect of what they got and yet bards are just left in the dust with nothing, especially now that sidewinder sucks. In all my years of MMO gaming, I have never had my main class so utterly destroyed for me like this.
Click to expand...
idk man, I think WM is here to stay. If they remove it then they would have to make BRD DPS weaker than MCH to balance out the advantage of being able to move 100% of the time and thats a big nono imo, then people are going to end up taking MCH over BRD becuase of the higher DPS potential and same utility.

Might as well try leveling a MCH since they are a lot more run and gun than BRD atm(90% of their abilities are instant still)

GB was definitely implemented better than WM.

I think the only advantage BRD has over MCH atm is if the group runs 2 casters but that rarely happens, its usually 2 melee 1 caster.

And the DPS disparity isn't that bad in a raid setting anymore if you run with a DRG, you're only 50 behind most DPS jobs.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maybe my server is just different I dunno. I still see s lot of bards and like I said many I talked to don't seem to mind. I haven't had anyone complain about me but maybe it helps I understand the mechanics of fights so if we die it not my dps that's to blame.

My MCH just hit 40 and im enjoying it atm. Plan to get it to 60 mostly because im lazy and have the gear for it lol
 
ChalupaBatman said:
idk man, I think WM is here to stay. If they remove it then they would have to make BRD DPS weaker than MCH to balance out the advantage of being able to move 100% of the time and thats a big nono imo, then people are going to end up taking MCH over BRD becuase of the higher DPS potential and same utility.
Click to expand...
Oh that's the best part, MCH is already parsing higher than bard in fights. The GB buff was godly and might need dialing back a bit (a crazy good monk in my guild was parsing over 1k on some fights playing MCH). I for sure will be checking out MCH when I get my crafters where I want them, but for now I'm just stuck with bard as my only 60 to raid with so if I don't raid in two weeks, I couldn't care less at this point. They'll just hand all the gear out in two months anyway with casual patches and now that my server first group is caput there's really no driving factor to raid. I gave WM a fair go a couple times and the flashy moves are sweet, but in the end the job just isn't fun to play that way for me.

Oh and this all could have been avoided if they'd take their heads out of their ass about a PTR. JUST SAYIN.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
only thing that sucks about MCH is high DPS relies too much on RNG, but I probably will end up leveling one eventually also but atm I'm fine with playing NIN for progression since its a really fun, fast paced job and our old NIN will be going MCH.

 
We beat the current Alex Floor 1 record speed kill tonight I think.

Last time I checked it was 3:21 we got it down in 3:10

Boss didnt even jump once.

fe8jDRF.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBLug1e1TU

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lol, not a bard or mch in sight.  Whelp, SE done fucked this one up good.  Hope they're happy with class balance because nobody else is lolol.

Also, Tachikoma!

V08Qxay.png


 
Reports ive read has said MCH is actually pretty strong DPS wise.

People are doing to MCH what they did to SMN at first saying their DPS is crap because they don't factor in pet damage.

 
No, MCH just got a HUGE buff to dps is what happened.  All I know is Bards are just falling by the wayside and I actually DID find a PF group tonight on my server not accepting bards for A1.  Like, SE has shit the bed with this game and I'm livid.  This is their problem to fix, not the players and the more they strong-arm and double-down on things we never asked for, the more they will lose people playing unique jobs like bard.

 
BRD DPS is decent now imo, but behind MCH for sure.

I would still be playing BRD if my group had a DRG but sadly we don't so its going to be MNK, NIN, MCH and SMN. 

If you don't run a DRG in your group you're better off taking a MCH. 

 
People not taking bards is just people reading whatever people think on the internet and believing its impossible to do anything with Bards.

Ive cleared all of Alex as a bard and had no issues. I cleared A1 with 2 Bards and a MCH and I cleared A4 with 2 Bards.

People who think you cant take bards to anything are just being stupid. I had a Ninja in our Bis group last night saying we weren't able to kill the adds because we had a Bard (me) and a BLM in the group but people running the phase all said that he was the lowest DPS in the party.

 
Deader2818 said:
People not taking bards is just people reading whatever people think on the internet and believing its impossible to do anything with Bards.

Ive cleared all of Alex as a bard and had no issues. I cleared A1 with 2 Bards and a MCH and I cleared A4 with 2 Bards.

People who think you cant take bards to anything are just being stupid. I had a Ninja in our Bis group last night saying we weren't able to kill the adds because we had a Bard (me) and a BLM in the group but people running the phase all said that he was the lowest DPS in the party.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but Alex as a whole is made to be super easy. Yo can have shit tier dps and still beat it, for savage you will probably need all dps to be over 1k, no BRD will be over 1k w/o a DRG. So yes, there is a reason why you shouldn't take BRD if you want to psuh for early clears.

BRD with DRG is strong though, since DRG's will lend you that extra 10% damage and 15% crit buff.

 
ChalupaBatman said:
Sorry, but Alex as a whole is made to be super easy. Yo can have shit tier dps and still beat it, for savage you will probably need all dps to be over 1k, no BRD will be over 1k w/o a DRG. So yes, there is a reason why you shouldn't take BRD if you want to psuh for early clears.

BRD with DRG is strong though, since DRG's will lend you that extra 10% damage and 15% crit buff.
Click to expand...
I understand that but at this point in time there is only Alex, Dungeons, Bis EX and Ravana EX for end game as as it stands right now there is no reason at all to exclude Bard from groups esp PF other then just being dumb.

As far as Alex Hard goes no idea what its going to be like at all till we get to that point. Im sure once its out ill clear it on Bard just like ive done on everything else that ive had no problems on.

Also if going for early clears most groups will probably want a bard anyways since for those early clears youll likely need TP/MP regain anyways. Granted MCH can do that as well but ive already had several statics trying to get me in their group as Bard for Alex hard.

 
Deader2818 said:
I understand that but at this point in time there is only Alex, Dungeons, Bis EX and Ravana EX for end game as as it stands right now there is no reason at all to exclude Bard from groups esp PF other then just being dumb.

As far as Alex Hard goes no idea what its going to be like at all till we get to that point. Im sure once its out ill clear it on Bard just like ive done on everything else that ive had no problems on.

Also if going for early clears most groups will probably want a bard anyways since for those early clears youll likely need TP/MP regain anyways. Granted MCH can do that as well but ive already had several statics trying to get me in their group as Bard for Alex hard.
Click to expand...
They said Alex Savage is the same difficulty as SCoB Savage but I doubt they mean T7s, I'm thinking its going to be a little easier than SCoB Savage and a little harder than FCoB on release.

BRD is still viable but optimally if you're not running a DRG you are better off taking a MCH since they do more damage and buff physical damage and most comps are 5 phys 3 casters. BRD would be the easy choice if a group ran 2 caster DPS but that pretty rare.

 
Deader2818 said:
People not taking bards is just people reading whatever people think on the internet and believing its impossible to do anything with Bards.

Ive cleared all of Alex as a bard and had no issues. I cleared A1 with 2 Bards and a MCH and I cleared A4 with 2 Bards.

People who think you cant take bards to anything are just being stupid. I had a Ninja in our Bis group last night saying we weren't able to kill the adds because we had a Bard (me) and a BLM in the group but people running the phase all said that he was the lowest DPS in the party.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the damage is done. The stigma now is that bards are a detriment to the party and do not produce results. This is a fundamental FAILURE of SE's design team and I hope it comes back to bite them hard.

 
Yeah because people are sheep and just believe what people like you say.

Bard isn't perfect. But having one in your party isnt going to make or break your run.

 
Deader2818 said:
Yeah because people are sheep and just believe what people like you say.

Bard isn't perfect. But having one in your party isnt going to make or break your run.
Click to expand...
On fights where dps checks are a reality, it can actually make or break a run (or should we forget how necessary MNK was on T13 for dragon kick?). Bards would have already been out the door long ago if not for mana/TP songs but now that MCH is a viable alternative and not dependent on DRG for dps increase, we're seeing what happens when a job underperforms or is overly complex to play. This is very much where SMN was at for 2.0 and now BLM is the redheaded stepchild, so there is precedent. Point is, there are a lot of unhappy customers with the direction the design team is taking and that's unhealthy for an MMO. I understand change is hard to accept sometimes, but in this instance it has created far too many issues than is worth pursuing. I just hope they realize their mistake before further damage is done.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
On BG in reading that Bard DPS generally is fine just people don't find it fun to play.

Also, maybe my server is just different but generally in game i havent seen much bard hate at all.

 
Deader2818 said:
On BG in reading that Bard DPS generally is fine just people don't find it fun to play.

Also, maybe my server is just different but generally in game i havent seen much bard hate at all.
Click to expand...
We've yet to see a litmus test yet to see just how 'fine' bard dps is when pitted against actual fights. But yes, the inflation of stats may be putting bard dps where it should be by the numbers and we're not used to such a large dps gap for a support role yet. They already sat far behind MNK and DRG dps in the past but at that time the margin was much closer than 200-300 dps difference. The general consensus of bard being unfun to play is exactly how I feel at this time when having to stance dance. I'm now even experiencing what it's like to sacrifce mechanics for dps and it feels bad man, real bad; I take back everything I've ever said to our BLM when they'd die standing in something.

The bard hate is a symptom of a larger problem: bard is now overly complex for the average player to comprehend and use efficiently. Weaving oGCDs is less efficient, missing the window or needing to move during an IJ reapplication is a huge dps loss and we have no tools in our kit to accomodate that situation (see: rapid fire), repelling shot creates cast interruption issues, our attacks can be interrupted by aoe damage (including IJ which is again a dps loss), tunnel visioning with too many factors to track now (dot timers CANNOT fall off, empyreal arrow, sidewinder, and the five dps CDs we already had), DPS cooldowns do not align nicely (see: barrage with empyreal arrow or iron jaw dot snapshots), and having to switch mindsets on the fly on movement intense fights like Rav Ex or T13. Before bards were simple enough to play beyond the opening rotation and it allowed the player to focus on the fight rather than what's going on hotbarwise. Plenty of people can sit there and say 'git gud' but the truth is a majority of players don't care to and prefer to just have fun.

This then fosters the perception that bards are just bad news because the numbers are low, difficult to play, and generally unfun. They, at this point in time, require the group composition to have either a DRG to inflate their dps and/or a couple casters to support the loss in dps through foes. Bard is in a very bad position when faced with increasing competition from high dps jobs and limited raid slots. I wouldn't say necessarily that bards are hated in groups, they just don't have a place right now.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lol, I was kicked from an A1 DF group last night for "low dps" after we wiped on the mini-boss twice (and I was using WM just because you literally sit there anyway for Faust).  They even tried to tell me I wasn't using foes when I was so they were just making excuses to get the group to boot me.  I give up!  I didn't get my A1 or A4 loots for last week and since I have no group for savage anyway, I just don't care anymore.  This is just too much to take while the guys in charge are asleep at the wheel.  I love socializing with my friends in this game but everyday I'm just losing the will to even log in at this point.

 
Yeah, it's hilarious because I had a buddy parse me last night on Faust and I pulled 1012.  It's only that high because we were wrecking DPS hard and was a short parse.  Think on A1 I was mid-900's, but still falling behind the monsters on melee classes.

New bard rotation isn't much of a stretch from the old one though: Quelling > Battle Voice > Raging > Hawk's Eye > -PULL- Bloodletter > Straight Shot > BfB > Inner Release > Venomous > Pot OR Flaming Arrow > Wind Bite > Barrage > Empyreal Arrow > Sidewinder (this could be swapped with EA but sometimes the server is still registering a tick from wind bite, so best to use after EA) > Heavy Shot > Flaming Arrow (if you potted) > Heavy Shot (if venomous is at 9s) > Iron Jaws > Empyreal Arrow.  Only thing that changes really is weaving new abilities and swapping the dots around since they're being refreshed early.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
And good on the JP playerbase for bitching Yoshi out for this new token system, because it sucks donkey nuts.  There's no reason to make people farm the same turns every week for one loot each.  It should be one loot per week and keep the tokens like they are now but reduce the cost of each item to 1.  They made the mistake of making Alex normal four turns instead of a full run for normal mode, so this is on them to clean up.  It should have been just like crystal tower, one loot per week with a weekly for an accessory.  That would put everyone on the same page, no margin for error figuring out what tokens you need and when to optimally get them.  This design team just blows my mind sometimes with the incompetence they breed.  But oh no, we don't need a PTR to feel these things out.  It's not like we couldn't disable all story related text/cutscenes to keep spoilers to a minimum. . .

 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name="Jodou" post="12806610" timestamp="1436983165"]And good on the JP playerbase for bitching Yoshi out for this new token system, because it sucks donkey nuts. There's no reason to make people farm the same turns every week for one loot each. It should be one loot per week and keep the tokens like they are now but reduce the cost of each item to 1. They made the mistake of making Alex normal four turns instead of a full run for normal mode, so this is on them to clean up. It should have been just like crystal tower, one loot per week with a weekly for an accessory. That would put everyone on the same page, no margin for error figuring out what tokens you need and when to optimally get them. This design team just blows my mind sometimes with the incompetence they breed. But oh no, we don't need a PTR to feel these things out. It's not like we couldn't disable all story related text/cutscenes to keep spoilers to a minimum. . .[/quote]
This loot system is beyond stupid. I'm terrible bored to drive that damm car on A2, and now this BS that we cant get an accessory every week :( Even playing with a group it sucks when someone wants pedal or lens, and the damm turn keeps dropping only accessories stuffs...
 
People have a problem with the token system?

Alex isn't suppose to be like towers. They just said it would be a little harder than towers. Making it one and done would just cause people to then complain they have nothing to do. Its only been out a little over a week and I already have 6 pieces.

 
Deader2818 said:
People have a problem with the token system?

Alex isn't suppose to be like towers. They just said it would be a little harder than towers. Making it one and done would just cause people to then complain they have nothing to do. Its only been out a little over a week and I already have 6 pieces.
Click to expand...
It's not fair to expect players to farm each turn each week for a specific piece of loot when it has a chance of dropping on top of a chance to win it. I've only done a few runs for loot and it's already mindnumbing even before winning my loot. Then to expect the rest of your farm group to continue on because someone needs a lens or shaft for 5+ runs just to see the same loot each time is overbearing. In fact, people were so disengaged by our 5th run of A2 last night a tank died on the last wave and the dolls got loose causing a wipe. I said, whelp I'm done and everyone agreed. I even goofed on my first A4 kill this week by rolling on a crank so I'm still 4 weeks out from being OiS again pre-savage but oh well, not like it matters at this point.

This whole expansion has just been devastating to me seing it go downhill so fast. Just so much disappointment when I used to love just logging in, checking PF to see if people needed clears or pony farms and hanging out with friends. Now everyone is busy leveling or crafting it feels less communal and PF is majorly hunt parties or alex farms, neither of which requires my help really. I hate leveling, I'd rather just be 60 everything and gear them up to help people ugh.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top