Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='depascal22']I'm for this but I think I can venture an answer. The rational answer is that conservatives don't trust the government to do anything. They would much rather have a private company take care of everything and people pay for their own health care.[/QUOTE]

Something like this.

See, when a private company screws up - I can take my money elsewhere. Clerk at Walmart was a jerk? Shop at Kmart. McDonald's made your burger wrong? Go to Burger King.

I don't have that choice with our Federal Government. I have virtually no redress to get back the thousands of dollars worth of taxes I've paid in that they've squandered away. Thus, I want to limit the power of the Federal Government as much as possible.
 
^^exactly. Whereas the liberals believe these elected officials have the best intentions and know what's best for society and therefore prefer to defer decisions/responsiblites upon them. The idea that They are more knowelegeable than a doctor, engineer, scientist, etc. (even in political/administative sector) is completely bunk.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']See, when a private company screws up - I can take my money elsewhere. Clerk at Walmart was a jerk? Shop at Kmart.[/QUOTE]

So what happens when Kmart says, "We see you've returned items in the past. Sorry, but your not profitable." That's what is happening right now to lots of people in the country. Shouldn't they have the right to choose too?
 
i absolutely hate that ignorant morons have all but killed the public option in the dem proposal.. fucking morons.. we've now little help of a public option, which wasn't nearly far enough but at least it was a tiny step in the right direction, and it was killed by american ignorance. it's neither one party or the other, it's just ignorant morons of all shapes sizes and political allegiance.. morons morons morons i hate you all.
 
It wasn't ignorance so much (reform is wildly popular in polls) as it is politicians are blatantly bought and paid off.
 
lobbying efforts dont work when the people are unified, representatives dont risk their job for the sweet lobbyist butter, lobbying is most effective when the people are divided

voters want reform but the public option has been controversial.. or, rather, was, past tense, was controversial.. pretty much dead now because of dumbass reps painting it as socialism and dumbass dems buying into it.. very easy for a representative to be bought off when his people are split
 
[quote name='Koggit']lobbying efforts dont work when the people are unified, representatives dont risk their job for the sweet lobbyist butter, lobbying is most effective when the people are divided

voters want reform but the public option has been controversial.. or, rather, was, past tense, was controversial.. pretty much dead now because of dumbass reps painting it as socialism and dumbass dems buying into it.. very easy for a representative to be bought off when his people are split[/QUOTE]
Representatives are always bought off. Do you think many people actually supported the bailouts?
 
i think a large number of people did, including top economists, yes.

legislation has consistently been passed against the wishes of the most powerful lobbies (tobacco, alcohol, energy, pharma, and insurance).. but it's only when the people overwhelmingly support it. if the people are divided, the lobbyists win.
 
[quote name='ninju D']So what happens when Kmart says, "We see you've returned items in the past. Sorry, but your not profitable." That's what is happening right now to lots of people in the country. Shouldn't they have the right to choose too?[/QUOTE]

They should have the right to choose from those who wish to provide them service. Otherwise, it's like saying I should have the right to choose where I want to eat dinner at - even if my neighbor's don't want me over.

And if no one wants to feed me dinner, then I'm free to go fix my own dinner.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']They should have the right to choose from those who wish to provide them service. Otherwise, it's like saying I should have the right to choose where I want to eat dinner at - even if my neighbor's don't want me over.

And if no one wants to feed me dinner, then I'm free to go fix my own dinner.[/QUOTE]

People keep making these ridiculous comparisons to healthcare as food or just another consumer good. It isn't , there are states where the vast majority of health insurance is provided by one or two companies at a time when the price of premiums has risen several times wage increases.

Choices are few and far between and it is a fact the "market" has failed.
 
Msut: Do tell, why do you think so many areas have "one or two companies" that provide health insurance, yet my crappy little town of about 5,000 people has four different fast food restaurants?
 
dude, everyone hates ominous game-players.. like.. just state your point. if this were a chat room i guess that'd be an alright sort of probing question to ask, but repeatedly resorting to that sort of thing on a forum is just a lame way of saying "i don't have a point, or am unable to articulate it"

but i'll bite: because noncompete market agreements are made, exactly like the telecom industry.. as a double whammy its cheaper for the HMOs to concentrate their efforts due to differing state statutes (similar to the challenge tech companies face when looking to expand internationally - every country has diff FCC-esque requirements)

that's actually part of why my sis lost her insurance -- she was on Cigna (group health) when diagnosed but Cigna doesn't offer personal coverage in Louisiana, they only offer group health.. if Cigna did offer personal coverage in Louisiana and not only group health (which is surely due to either to state-level healthcare regulation or a noncompete agreement with another HMO) then state statutes would've forced them to offer us single-family coverage..
 
Probing questions are better, as it gives you an idea of someone's understanding of the situation.

I don't think "non compete" agreements are as big of a deal as you think. Just because company one and two sign an agreement, nothing is stopping company three and four from coming in.

State regulations, however, probably play a much larger role in the limitation of health care offerings.

It's rather unfair to put all the blame on the free market when state regulations are preventing players from entering it.
 
probing questions are what you do when you don't have an argument but dont wanna admit you're wrong.. you seem to use them all too often


your current argument is terrible, btw. deregulation is the problem. to call state regulations the problem is to imply the solution is either (a) regulation at the fed level, taking away state's rights to regulate health care or (b) deregulate health care by limiting state's rights without imposing fed regulation to replace it. (a) is obviously the more logical of the two, but the vast vast vast majority of free market capitalists support states' rights to govern interstate commerce, and if done it leaves quite a few problems... if you honestly think it'd open the competitive floodgates, fine, it's nothing but rhetoric but fine... still doesn't solve all the problems we get as a result of profit-driven health care, no amount of competition ever would. problems that have already been discussed in great detail so i won't revisit.
 
You, yourself, offer State Regulations as a reason for so little competition in the market. Then, you tell me I'm wrong for agreeing with you?
 
i listed the primary reason as noncompetes

same reason i can't get verizon fios but the microsoft yuppies 5 miles away in Bellevue can

"you get this area, we get that area, and we both make way more money. deal."
 
A.) A Non-compete agreement is not a barrier to entry for a new company.
B.) How come it's so horribly wrong when I make comparisons between health insurance and other commodities, but it's perfectly okay for you to do so?
C.) Health Insurance requires some paper (to sign agreements) and some money (to pay for insurance/medical procedures). Internet service is limited by equipment and land requirements - and thus has more barriers to prevent market place entry. For example, in a world without government intervention, you could easily start up your own insurance company with some cash and some paper. To start an internet service provider, you'd need land to install equipment, and, in cases like FIOS, expensive installation of cables on public and private properties, etc., etc. This prevents smart guy with money from starting up a competitive internet provider on a whim. What prevents smart guy with money from starting a competitive health insurance provider?
 
i -- i never objected to your analogies, i didn't even really read them, some other ppl objected, their objections may or may not be valid, i wasn't following all that closely. the current system is analogous to many other industries and that is a huge part of the problem (that is, being a middleman between doctor & patient is currently lucrative business, it shouldn't be and profit maximization causes both economic and health problems).

ii -- i tried googling for market info regarding HMOs but couldn't find anything recent, then thought, wait, wtf am i doing, i could not care less why there are just a few giant HMOs, you're still asking questions instead of making statements and your questions don't even seem to lead anywhere because . . .

iii -- even if there were more competition it wouldn't solve the most problematic aspects of profit-driven care (as i stated in post #212)
 
[quote name='UncleBob']why do you think so many areas have "one or two companies" that provide health insurance, yet my crappy little town of about 5,000 people has four different fast food restaurants?[/quote]

How can I tell you are asking questions like that because you cannot face facts?

Probing questions are better, as it gives you an idea of someone's understanding of the situation.
Click to expand...

My "understanding of the situation" is not in doubt. Your understanding? Yes.

B.) How come it's so horribly wrong when I make comparisons between health insurance and other commodities, but it's perfectly okay for you to do so?
Click to expand...

Because your comparisons are invariably terrible.

Your assertion that "some" cash is all that is needed to start your own insurance company (especially medical insurance) is mind boggling.
 
[quote name='Msut77']My "understanding of the situation" is not in doubt. Your understanding? Yes.[/quote]

If you are so convinced that your opinion of the situation is the only correct one, then I don't even understand why you're in this thread to begin with.

Because your comparisons are invariably terrible.
Click to expand...
I can see how compairing health insurance to automobile insurance is a worse comparison than health insurance to internet service.

Your assertion that "some" cash is all that is needed to start your own insurance company (especially medical insurance) is mind boggling.
Click to expand...
What? You think someone would need considerably more cash than "some" to start and maintain a health insurance company? Please, do elaborate.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']If you are so convinced that your opinion of the situation is the only correct one, then I don't even understand why you're in this thread to begin with.[/quote]

While I am certain my position is the correct one that would still be quite different from saying I cannot be convinced otherwise. Notice I use the word position instead of "opinion" which is incredibly abused.

You think someone would need considerably more cash than "some" to start and maintain a health insurance company?
Click to expand...

Well I would dare you to define "some" to start with.

I would also expect someone entertaining the idea (again with medical insurance) to have a lot of education and years of experience and even then how much clout do you think such a company would have?
 
UncleBob is just leading this discussion farther and farther down the toilet. None of it has to do with healthcare and everything to do with him somehow "winning" this discussion. Remember, he only has to come up with BS probing questions in answer to questions and then ask you to elaborate when he doesn't get the answer.
 
[quote name='Koggit']i absolutely hate that ignorant morons have all but killed the public option in the dem proposal.. fucking morons.. we've now little help of a public option, which wasn't nearly far enough but at least it was a tiny step in the right direction, and it was killed by american ignorance. it's neither one party or the other, it's just ignorant morons of all shapes sizes and political allegiance.. morons morons morons i hate you all.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Democrats can pass anything without the help of a single Republican, right?
 
I think he's saying that Republicans got the public stirred up against it. Many people have been writing their congressmen to kill this bill. It's the only way conservatives can win these days.
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Democrats can pass anything without the help of a single Republican, right?[/QUOTE]

In theory yes, but a few democrats are largely nom nom nominal the Blue Dogs for instance.

Even the ones who are supposed to be better on this issue have failed miserably.
 
Its true that state regulations are a huge part of why insurance cos offer insurance in any given state. The problem is that (for the most part) they withdraw from states when that state passes a law to try to keep them honest. They figure its too much work to rewrite their contract wording and instead they just pack up and leave. I've seen it happen. I used to work for a nationwide health insurance company for many years.
 
Any company that just gives up working in a state should be stripped in every other state. "Hey, state X just passed a law that makes us put everything in regular size print! Well, fuck that, we'll just work in state Y where they let us do whatever the hell we want." That kind of crap needs to be done away with.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I think he's saying that Republicans got the public stirred up against it. Many people have been writing their congressmen to kill this bill. It's the only way conservatives can win these days.[/QUOTE]

5 years ago the GOP had the Presidency, House, and Senate.... The Dem's bitched and blamed the GOP for what was and wasn't being accomplished in Washington.

2 years ago the GOP had the Presidency and the Dem's had the House and Senate... The Dem's bitched and blamed the GOP for what was and wasn't being accomplished in Washington.

This week the Dem's have the Presidency, House, and Senate.... The Dem's are bitching and blaming the GOP for what is and isn't being accomplished in Washington.
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']This week the Dem's have the Presidency, House, and Senate.... The Dem's are bitching and blaming the GOP for what is and isn't being accomplished in Washington.[/QUOTE]

wah wah wah



i went out of my way to say both parties are opposing the public option, i specifically said, i specified, both parties are to blame, both are opposing the public option, it's not a one-party problem, it's a people problem, yet you still QQ all butthurt over some imaginary GOP antogonization?

whatever man, blame the dems for it exclusively if you want even though the reps oppose it as well, whatever, doesnt make the slightest bit of difference in anything
 
[quote name='Koggit']wah wah wah



i went out of my way to say both parties are opposing the public option, i specifically said, i specified, both parties are to blame, both are opposing the public option, it's not a one-party problem, it's a people problem, yet you still QQ all butthurt over some imaginary GOP antogonization?

whatever man, blame the dems for it exclusively if you want even though the reps oppose it as well, whatever, doesnt make the slightest bit of difference in anything[/QUOTE]

AAAHAHAHAHA, you're directing insults at me and calling me a crybaby? My post wasn't even directed at you. The post was made simply to show how the difference between the Democrats and GOP is not a chasm, but a crack in the sidewalk.

But if you want to mention it. You have gone out of your way to defend the Democrats over the last year due to your belief that some form of universal healthcare was in the forecast.

You already know beforehand that 90%+ of the GOP is against universal healthcare. Didn't matter this time. The Democrats had an opportunity to introduce some type of reform and with 3+ years (at least) the timeframe to prove it works.
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']You already know beforehand that 90%+ of the GOP is against universal healthcare. Didn't matter this time. The Democrats had an opportunity to introduce some type of reform and with 3+ years (at least) the timeframe to prove it works.[/QUOTE]
okay cool except for the part where universal healthcare wasn't even proposed

[quote name='paddlefoot']You have gone out of your way to defend the Democrats over the last year due to your belief that some form of universal healthcare was in the forecast.[/QUOTE]
you're right that i believed obama would guide us to a single-payer system, wanted him to, and that i was disappointed when the plan was revealed to go no further than offering a public option. i expressed my disappointment in the dems at that point, i don't understand what this has to do with anything.

[quote name='paddlefoot']AAAHAHAHAHA, you're directing insults at me and calling me a crybaby? My post wasn't even directed at you.[/QUOTE]
rofl, right, you just quoted me but were talking to someone else..

by the way, paddlefoot, you better not respond to this post cause it's not directed to you, i'm talking to.. umm.. bob. yeah, this post is all in response to bob okay.
 
My big problem with Republicans on this issue is the same as with most other recent issues. They are not offering up any kind of solution but instead just saying whats wrong with the Democratic plan and spreading stupid ass lies. Do I think the Democratic plan is a good idea or even ironed out as it should be? Nope, I have no clue but my guess is they will fuck it up somehow. However atleast they are offering up something where as on issue after issue after issue Republicans are just waiting for Democrats to lead and then getting on Fox News and calling it socialism and making shit up(for example outragous claims of how people will pay $1000s more or wait months like they do in Canada which isnt true).

If they came out and said we feel the Democrats are taking the wrong approach and here is what we plan to do id be a lot more interested and a lot more likely to want to see them stop the Dems. Instead as I said they just blast the Dems and their "plans" consist of a series of very minor changes that wont accomplish much.

Energy is another good example of this. Instead of saying we believe there should be 100 new Nuclear plants within 10 years, we should invest this amount in alternatives and this amount should go to clean coal and provide evidence to why this is the right thing to do they just came out and scoffed at wind, solar and every alternative and said drill baby drill and more nuclear.

I dont WANT to support Democrats, I truly don't....but Republicans are not really giving any sane/thinking person any kind of option. They are not even in the freaking debate be it health care, energy, how to create American wealth or stand as a world leader again. The pundits are correct in saying they have simply become the party of no
 
[quote name='ninju D']Agreed. They have 2 speeds. Naysaying and fearmongering.[/QUOTE]

True. Also the Democrats are the party of bitching and broken promises.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']True. Also the Democrats are the party of bitching and broken promises.[/QUOTE]

But again atleast they are trying something. Ya in the end we get half what they promised and a lot of bitching.....but their attempting something. Look at the board and you see topic after topic after topic thats an argument about what Democrats are doing....now try to find some that are complaining about the plans Republicans are putting forth.....you cant because the last plan that Republicans put forth was for the war......

So ya again Democrats whine and they dont get everything they say they want to do accomplished(though Republicans have a lot to do with that part). And they have far too many egotistical know it ass douches like Pelosi and Reed right now.....but again at least their trying something.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']But again atleast they are trying something. Ya in the end we get half what they promised and a lot of bitching.....but their attempting something. Look at the board and you see topic after topic after topic thats an argument about what Democrats are doing....now try to find some that are complaining about the plans Republicans are putting forth.....you cant because the last plan that Republicans put forth was for the war......

So ya again Democrats whine and they dont get everything they say they want to do accomplished(though Republicans have a lot to do with that part). And they have far too many egotistical know it ass douches like Pelosi and Reed right now.....but again at least their trying something.[/QUOTE]

If the Democrats actually do anything, (which is like once every two years), they do it so half-assed it never works. Look at this health care bill. There's no way any Republican will vote for it. Plus they haven't even decided how to pay for it. The rest of the time its bitching and broken promises. When they aren't in power they bitch, bitch, bitch about the Republicans. Then, when they get in power they brake all the promises they made, and bitch about how the Republicans are destroying their proposals, instead of making a better one. I used to be a Democrat, until Obama got into office and did the exact opposite of the things he said he was going to do. I volunteered for him, to try to get him elected, and now what does he do? On FISA: He says he's against it, yet he votes for it, and so do enough Democrats to get it passed. On Iraq: The Democrats say, we get in office the troops come home. They've had 2 years now, and still the troops aren't home. Then finally, last year Obama said he's bring them home when he is elected. Oh, wait, no its 16 months. No, now its 23, and we're going to leave some there. On Lobbyists: Obama said there wouldn't be any in his administration. Opps, he lied, now his cabinet is filled with them. On NAFTA: Dems say we will renegotiate it. Then Obama is caught saying that is campaign rhetoric. On Gitmo and torture: Dems: Torture bad, Gitmo bad, stop both of them. Yet, with a Democrat controlled White House and Congress, Gitmo isn't closed, torture hasn't stopped. All these things and more that the Democrats have done have really showed me that neither party actually does anything they say they are going to do. They are both corporate controlled, and only care about their pocketbooks, and not the American people. Hell, if we had Jesse Ventura as president, I'm sure we could have a health care plan almost everyone likes. When he was governor of my state, my family actually had health insurance, through Minnesota Care, but then under the Republican (Pawlenty) the premiums went so high, and the coverage became so shitty, we decided not to keep it.
 
[quote name='Msut77']While I am certain my position is the correct one that would still be quite different from saying I cannot be convinced otherwise. Notice I use the word position instead of "opinion" which is incredibly abused.[/quote]

It is your "opinion" that we need health care reform, yes?

Well I would dare you to define "some" to start with.
Click to expand...
I'm going to ask another question. I'm sorry, but I just *have* to do it. I don't honestly expect an answer (as there is no *one* answer...) - I just want you to think carefully about where you're headed.

How much money does it take to start up a Health Insurance company?
How much tax payer money will the Federal Government have to spend to start up a nationwide health insurance service?

I keep hearing how it'll cost tax payers next to nothing... yet now you're saying it takes a lot of money just to start one up?

I would also expect someone entertaining the idea (again with medical insurance) to have a lot of education and years of experience and even then how much clout do you think such a company would have?
Click to expand...
I wonder how much education and medical experience Obama and the politicians entertaining the idea of a Federal Health Insurance program have...

[quote name='depascal22']UncleBob is just leading this discussion farther and farther down the toilet. None of it has to do with healthcare and everything to do with him somehow "winning" this discussion.[/QUOTE]

Now see, it's funny, I keep getting accused of playing a game, yet depascal is the one concerned with who's "winning".

Any chance we can drop the personal attacks and stick on the subject at hand? That'd be swell. If you have nothing to contribute or don't want to discuss the topic, that's okay. You don't have to reply to every post.

[quote name='depascal22']I think he's saying that Republicans got the public stirred up against it. Many people have been writing their congressmen to kill this bill. It's the only way conservatives can win these days.[/QUOTE]

Oh, heavens no! How horrible that individuals are letting their representatives know what they want. Damn them! They should just set back and let the government take care of them. Government knows best.

[quote name='depascal22']Any company that just gives up working in a state should be stripped in every other state. "Hey, state X just passed a law that makes us put everything in regular size print! Well, fuck that, we'll just work in state Y where they let us do whatever the hell we want." That kind of crap needs to be done away with.[/QUOTE]

It seems to me, if a state is passing a law as simple as mandating that stuff be printed in regular size fonts and *that* is the reason a company backs out, I'd almost bet another company would jump right in.

Now, are we dealing with states that force Health Insurance providers to include coverage for things like illegal drug treatments, pregnancy, etc? Because that's where the meat and potatoes are with what some of the major problems are in the industry.

[quote name='Koggit']rofl, right, you just quoted me but were talking to someone else..

by the way, paddlefoot, you better not respond to this post cause it's not directed to you, i'm talking to.. umm.. bob. yeah, this post is all in response to bob okay.[/QUOTE]

Well, since it's in response to me, I guess I should point out that paddlefoot didn't quote you in his original post, he quoted depascal.

[quote name='MSI Magus']But again atleast they are trying something. Ya in the end we get half what they promised and a lot of bitching.....but their attempting something.[/quote]

So, if the choices are crap on a stick and nothing, we should all jump for joy for the crap on a stick?

Personally, I say hang both parties and let whatever gods exist sort them out...

Look at the board and you see topic after topic after topic thats an argument about what Democrats are doing....now try to find some that are complaining about the plans Republicans are putting forth.....you cant because the last plan that Republicans put forth was for the war......
After how badly that turned out, do you really want the Republicans trying to come up with more ideas?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']If the Democrats actually do anything, (which is like once every two years), they do it so half-assed it never works. Look at this health care bill. There's no way any Republican will vote for it. Plus they haven't even decided how to pay for it. The rest of the time its bitching and broken promises. When they aren't in power they bitch, bitch, bitch about the Republicans. Then, when they get in power they brake all the promises they made, and bitch about how the Republicans are destroying their proposals, instead of making a better one. I used to be a Democrat, until Obama got into office and did the exact opposite of the things he said he was going to do. I volunteered for him, to try to get him elected, and now what does he do? On FISA: He says he's against it, yet he votes for it, and so do enough Democrats to get it passed. On Iraq: The Democrats say, we get in office the troops come home. They've had 2 years now, and still the troops aren't home. Then finally, last year Obama said he's bring them home when he is elected. Oh, wait, no its 16 months. No, now its 23, and we're going to leave some there. On Lobbyists: Obama said there wouldn't be any in his administration. Opps, he lied, now his cabinet is filled with them. On NAFTA: Dems say we will renegotiate it. Then Obama is caught saying that is campaign rhetoric. On Gitmo and torture: Dems: Torture bad, Gitmo bad, stop both of them. Yet, with a Democrat controlled White House and Congress, Gitmo isn't closed, torture hasn't stopped. All these things and more that the Democrats have done have really showed me that neither party actually does anything they say they are going to do. They are both corporate controlled, and only care about their pocketbooks, and not the American people. Hell, if we had Jesse Ventura as president, I'm sure we could have a health care plan almost everyone likes. When he was governor of my state, my family actually had health insurance, through Minnesota Care, but then under the Republican (Pawlenty) the premiums went so high, and the coverage became so shitty, we decided not to keep it.[/QUOTE]

I like the way you say half assed when in reality its watered down as a compromise with Republicans. You yourself said "look at the health care bill there is no way any Republican will vote for it" which is exactly the problem. Democrats try too often to compromise because they dont have the balls to do what Republicans do and jam something down peoples throats regardless of if they will like it or not.

I completely agree with you that they break promise after promise after promise from the troops to FISA to taking on corporate control. Time after time they see Republicans wont vote for something and they see Republicans whipping up Joe six pack with a bunch of stupid lies and they roll over and either half ass a bill or just let it die. But again they are at least putting forth proposals, id rather back the pussy with a heart in the right place then the dick with no brains...again not that thats saying I have faith in Democrats because I dont, whole purpose of my original post and continuing ones is just pointing out that even if they fuck things up their at least putting forth a debate be it on health care, the environment or other matters which beats the whole just pissing on the oppositions plans and whipping up the idiotic masses with lies.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']

So, if the choices are crap on a stick and nothing, we should all jump for joy for the crap on a stick?

Personally, I say hang both parties and let whatever gods exist sort them out...

Look at the board and you see topic after topic after topic thats an argument about what Democrats are doing....now try to find some that are complaining about the plans Republicans are putting forth.....you cant because the last plan that Republicans put forth was for the war......
After how badly that turned out, do you really want the Republicans trying to come up with more ideas?
Click to expand...

Im with you on just killing both parties and letting things get sorted out after. I would love to see both parties done away with. However again just saying I will take the guy that is atleast offering ideas to the guy that has none. And id say shit on a stick is an unfair comparison, I know your conservative but come on......the Dems have a lot of good ideas the problem is they either half ass it compromising with Republicans vs going balls to the wall or they are just corrupt and slip in shit to make them some money vs going with their original promises.
Click to expand...
 
I prefer Libertarian over Conservative. ;)

I won't disagree that some Democratic members have some good ideas - and I like to believe most of them have good intentions. I just don't think this particular situation is one of those good ideas.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I prefer Libertarian over Conservative. ;)

I won't disagree that some Democratic members have some good ideas - and I like to believe most of them have good intentions. I just don't think this particular situation is one of those good ideas.[/QUOTE]

Which is all fine and good. I mean a society where we can all have a debate is the society I want to live in, again the problem is Republicans arnt interested in a debate they just want to piss on other peoples plans and sling mud.
 
I don't want to go around defending the Republicans (I think there are plenty of folks on here who'll do that), but perhaps they aren't coming up with a plan because they're fine with the system we have now?
 
actually i can't think of a single active poster who would defend republicans

we have a good share of conservatives, but the GOP is no longer the party for conservatives
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I won't disagree that some Democratic members have some good ideas - and I like to believe most of them have good intentions. I just don't think this particular situation is one of those good ideas.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying that people have the right to choose one provider of a service over another (be it burgers or discount shopping or what ever you come up with) but if you'd take the time to see what Obama and the Dems are trying to do it actually is all about choice.
 
It's not about actually knowing what the hell is going on or having any sort of experience with health care. It's about churning out shitty example after example in some sort of attempt to show everyone that you can ask deep probing questions that will stimulate something.

The whole problem most of us have are as simple as the title for this thread. It's not anything that will provoke reasonable discussion. Look at it. Obama Care Could Be Deadly. This isn't about ironing out differences to get anyone healthcare. It's about trying to embarass a Democratic President in the name of conservatism. Oh no. Obama did this. Obama did that. Democratic Congress is going to "liberate" every single company in the country. It's fearmongering at it's best.
 
[quote name='ninju D']You keep saying that people have the right to choose one provider of a service over another (be it burgers or discount shopping or what ever you come up with) but if you'd take the time to see what Obama and the Dems are trying to do it actually is all about choice.[/QUOTE]

I do like choice, don't get me wrong - but the government isn't offering us a choice of where they're going to spend our money. It'd be like if you decided you wanted to shop at Walmart, but Walmart was still going to have money taken out of your pay check every week so they could sell stuff cheaper to the customers who choose to shop there. The government isn't offering me a choice if they're going to come to my house with guns and force me to pay for it.

[quote name='UncleBob']Any chance we can drop the personal attacks and stick on the subject at hand? That'd be swell. If you have nothing to contribute or don't want to discuss the topic, that's okay. You don't have to reply to every post.[/quote]

[quote name='depascal22']It's not about actually knowing what the hell is going on or having any sort of experience with health care. It's about churning out shitty example after example in some sort of attempt to show everyone that you can ask deep probing questions that will stimulate something.[/QUOTE]

You know, you could have just said "No."...
 
[quote name='depascal22']It's not about actually knowing what the hell is going on or having any sort of experience with health care. It's about churning out shitty example after example in some sort of attempt to show everyone that you can ask deep probing questions that will stimulate something.

The whole problem most of us have are as simple as the title for this thread. It's not anything that will provoke reasonable discussion. Look at it. Obama Care Could Be Deadly. This isn't about ironing out differences to get anyone healthcare. It's about trying to embarass a Democratic President in the name of conservatism. Oh no. Obama did this. Obama did that. Democratic Congress is going to "liberate" every single company in the country. It's fearmongering at it's best.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point, Republicans dont even try and debate anymore just piss off everyone or scare them if that aint working.
 
Uncle Bob, You still don't understand that people will use money to buy hookers, cigarettes, beer, and everything else except for health care. Those same people will still show up to the ER and drive prices up for everyone. Either way, you're still paying more. Now would you rather pay a little more to a government that at least pretends to have your interests in mind or a HMO that only wants mo' money, mo' money, mo'?
 
[quote name='depascal22']Uncle Bob, You still don't understand that people will use money to buy hookers, cigarettes, beer, and everything else except for health care. Those same people will still show up to the ER and drive prices up for everyone. Either way, you're still paying more. Now would you rather pay a little more to a government that at least pretends to have your interests in mind or a HMO that only wants mo' money, mo' money, mo'?[/QUOTE]

Again exactly on. My fiancee's cousin has like 200 of those stupid ass special phone rings and call waiting rings so when people call her/she calls them they get special songs......yet recently had a hospital visit that was uninsured and had the gall to whine about not being able to afford health care. My little brother is the same way, fucking moron bought a motorcycle then went out and wrecked it with his friends 3 times within a year each time going to the hospital uninsured.

People like this will run up a huge tab for the rest of us because they have limited income and chose to spend that income on stupid things vs health insurance.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']It is your "opinion" that we need health care reform, yes?[/quote]

Yes, that would be my position. It differs from say my opinion on choosing chocolate over vanilla since it is based on a whole host of facts and the use of reason. This would be in contrast to your "opinion".

I'm going to ask another question. I'm sorry, but I just *have* to do it.
Click to expand...

It might be faster for you to just admit you got nothing.

I don't honestly expect an answer
Click to expand...

That would be because your "questions" are just semi-rhetorical wallpaper spread over the gaping holes in your arguments.

I just want you to think carefully about where you're headed.
Click to expand...

Of course you do. You are honestly concerned instead of just setting up your next ad hoc "argument".

How much money does it take to start up a Health Insurance company?
Click to expand...

More than "some".

How much tax payer money will the Federal Government have to spend to start up a nationwide health insurance service?
Click to expand...

Depends.

I keep hearing how it'll cost tax payers next to nothing... yet now you're saying it takes a lot of money just to start one up?
Click to expand...

No you don't keep hearing that. That would be a strawman you might have had a chance of tackling instead of what has been stated that basically every other industrialized country manages to cover all of their citizens and yet spend less than we do. There are a bunch of reasons for this, five minutes with google would educate you.

I wonder how much education and medical experience Obama and the politicians entertaining the idea of a Federal Health Insurance program have
Click to expand...

Because Obama and crew are apparently banned now from appointing/hiring people with that expertise...

Now see, it's funny, I keep getting accused of playing a game, yet depascal is the one concerned with who's "winning".
Click to expand...

It stopped being funny a while ago.

Now let me ask you a question, just to see if you will ever, ever answer one.

Can you name a single country with a universal healthcare system where anyone is agitating for a move to an American style system?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top