Obama Care Could Be Deadly

I was going to say, health insurance companies already make many decisions in what your doctor can do, how is that any different than the government doing it?

That's assuming they (government) did.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']The one thing I am sick of hearing about is it's not "forced universal healthcare". You're right, it's not forced. However, if you don't have health insurance, you get fined. If you're a business that doesn't provide health insurance for your employees, you get fined (different amounts depending on the size of your payroll). No ones being forced to do anything all.[/QUOTE]

Would you also say one isn't "forced" to pay taxes?

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']If you modify government bureaucrat with a HMO bureaucrat, how is that different than the current system?[/QUOTE]

The HMO Bureaucrat doesn't show up at my home with guns if I don't give him money.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Would you also say one isn't "forced" to pay taxes?



The HMO Bureaucrat doesn't show up at my home with guns if I don't give him money.[/QUOTE]

i was pretty upset when the armed FBI agents raided my house after i didnt pay taxes last year.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Correct. Once government takes over, it takes over.

Will things get worse, better or stay the same?

If our healthcare is ranked 40th or 50th in 20 years compared to other countries, we need to go back to private insurance.

If our healthcare is ranked 20th or 30th in 20 years compared to other countries, going to socialized medicine will have proven to be a good thing.

If our healthcare ranking doesn't change, the personal opinion of healthcare performance will based on that person's old cost under private healthcare versus the current cost under public healthcare.[/QUOTE]

But that's the problem though, Government does not let go of control so easily. If this happens, it'll probably stay that way for a very long time, and it'll be a bad thing.

Also, doctors will probably leave for greener pastures if the Government tells them their salary is being cut by 50-60% a year with this new plan. So needless to say, quality will suffer.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']If you modify government bureaucrat with a HMO bureaucrat, how is that different than the current system?[/QUOTE]

The difference is that HMO's can be held liable for their decisions and have a vested interested in providing quality care. The government's only concern is the proide a minimal standard of care and put more of the risk burden on providers who are increasingly asked to do more with far less. Also for what it's worth, while HMO's can be a pain to deal with, they are far less invasive in affecting physician decision making processes than government payers. I rarely have to justify my medical decisions with most private insurers but with Medicare and Medicaid they will fight you tooth and nail on the most basic stuff and I have to fill out appeals paperwork almost on a daily basis. Just last week, I was denied payment for admitting a woman with a stroke rather than send her home because her symptoms were "stable" and "could have been managed as an outpatient", which of course it want every published stroke guideline says NOT to do. So in the future, I'm either supposed to do the right thing and not get paid, or do the wrong thing for the patient and open myself up to a malpractice suit.
 
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[quote name='dopa345']The difference is that HMO's can be held liable for their decisions and have a vested interested in providing quality care.[/quote]

They haven't really been held accountable yet and their vested interest is in making money by not providing care.
 
[quote name='Msut77']They haven't really been held accountable yet and their vested interest is in making money by not providing care.[/QUOTE]

HMOs are (suppose to be) regulated at both the state and federal levels and can only become licensed by the states. So basically the govt. is doing a half ass job and you want to give them more responsibilities. The government needs to do their job right and cut down on price gouging.
 
[quote name='XxFuRy2Xx']Looks like the health care bills currently out there will actually raise costs: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Pretty lame.[/QUOTE]

That's pretty much common sense, don't need a panel analysis to tell me that. Universal Healthcare will raise costs of healthcare while simulataneously lowering quality of healthcare. Its a lose/lose proposition for everybody except illegal immigrants who will receive coverage under the current bill, the one group that should NOT receive coverage moving forward. Medicare/Medicaid takes care of the legal citizen poor in this country, saddling citizens with the cost of healthcare for illegal immigrants while also forcing them to pay for a lower-standard public plan is ridiculous... And that is why the bill is at a dead halt in the senate currently; politicians don't want to lose their job next year over this.
 
pedobear+org.jpg


Pedobear supports this health plan. Everyone needs to fall in line.
 
[quote name='dopa345']The difference is that HMO's can be held liable for their decisions and have a vested interested in providing quality care. .[/QUOTE]


Wendell Potter would disagree

Very informative Bill Moyer interview of a Health Care Whistleblower. Though, is it really surprising they are out for profit not for the actual care of their customers.
 
[quote name='tivo']HMOs are (suppose to be) regulated at both the state and federal levels and can only become licensed by the states. So basically the govt. is doing a half ass job and you want to give them more responsibilities. The government needs to do their job right and cut down on price gouging.[/QUOTE]
It's a bit disingenuous to blame the government for too little oversight and regulation when Bush essentially ran on that platform.
 
About that regulation...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...-care_s-biggest-problem-8003652-51328842.html
Take two very different states: Wisconsin and New York. In Wisconsin, a family can buy a health-insurance plan for as little as $3,000 a year. The price for a basic family plan in the Empire State: $12,000.

The stark difference has nothing to do with each state's health sector as a share of its economy (14.8 percent in Wisconsin as of 2004, the most recent year for which data are available, and 13.9 percent in New York). Rather, the difference has to do with how each state's insurance pools are regulated.

In New York State, politicians have tried to run the health-insurance system from Albany, forcing insurers to deliver complex Cadillac plans to every subscriber for political reasons, driving up costs. Wisconsin's insurers are far freer to sell plans at prices consumers want.

As someone in the comments points out, cost of living also plays a part - but damn...
Let individuals shop around for their insurance - including crossing state lines. That'd open up some competition.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gratzer

I'm rolling my eyes and making a wanking gesture at that op-ed.

Because I trust the author.

It would be one thing if he did more than flick his wrist and disregard these plans as "cadillac plans," but the writer has a history of having this ideology that spans decades.

Instead of focusing on health care outcomes, % of the population covered, or the %/rate of getting preventative care as opposed to i'm-not-sick-oh-shit-it's-gangrenous treatment, he uses some absurd "we have 4 times as many mri machines as they do" measure, as if that's indicative of a fucking thing. There aren't lines to use mri machines, so what's the relevance of that?

USA WINS! WE GOT MORE SHIT!
 
[quote name='UncleBob']About that regulation...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...-care_s-biggest-problem-8003652-51328842.html


As someone in the comments points out, cost of living also plays a part - but damn...
Let individuals shop around for their insurance - including crossing state lines. That'd open up some competition.[/QUOTE]

There is no market solution to our healthcare problems.

I am pretty sure this has been pointed out to you before.

Also your source is either incredibly sloppy or lying as Gratzer is a Psychiatrist not a Physician.
 
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[quote name='UncleBob']About that regulation...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...-care_s-biggest-problem-8003652-51328842.html


As someone in the comments points out, cost of living also plays a part - but damn...
Let individuals shop around for their insurance - including crossing state lines. That'd open up some competition.[/QUOTE]
Dammit, UncleBob, stop being such a conspiracy theorist. The state of Wisconsin does not exist. Neither does their $3,000 dollar a year health care. That guy who wrote that article is a nut! $3,000 dollar a year health care! What's that guy been smoking?! Also, if we had a system like England and other countries we could treat everyone, and never run out of money! Just look at this article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...think-twice-before-rationing-care-447922.html
Everything will be fine!
See:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/06/health.politics
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4S6EzG53ys
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQiOQs-WZNM
 
[quote name='mykevermin']op-eds and 30 second video clips: damning evidence in the postmodern image era.

fuck the facts.[/QUOTE]
Yes! fuck the facts!
In a report to be published this morning, the BMA will launch its plan for the future of the NHS in England. It will say that despite the billions of pounds poured into the health service over the past six years, there is still not enough cash to pay for everything. We must, therefore, kiss goodbye to the idea of a universal service available, free to all on the basis of need, and accept that some of what the NHS does it must cease doing.
That is thoughtcrime! Down with the thought criminals!
 
Seems the obama admin is losing ground.. this will be a year long issue and then i am not sure where its going to go... dropped and forgot or pushed through with the all too common fix it as we encounter issues approach strkingly similar to downloadable bug fixes for this genertion of gaming systems and early game launches.
 
[quote name='Snake2715']Seems the obama admin is losing ground.. this will be a year long issue and then i am not sure where its going to go... dropped and forgot or pushed through with the all too common fix it as we encounter issues approach strikingly similar to downloadable bug fixes for this generation of gaming systems and early game launches.[/QUOTE]

Compared to your solution of what? Taking the cartridge out, blowing on it and putting it back in?
 
You're on a sinking ship with two other people.
One wants to wait and see if the ship will stop sinking on it's own or if help will come, in spite of the fact nothing appears to be changing.
The other has the idea of drilling holes in the bottom of the ship to let the water out.

I guess we should all listen to the second guy because - at least - he's wanting to do *something*?
 
If Obama wants to make healthcare better, not worse, do the following:

1. Abandon all intentions of a public plan. Yes, that means the democrats won't be a shoe-in for illegal immigrant votes once they become citizens sometime in the future. Sorry.

2. Mandate that all ER visits require a $30 out-of-pocket payment regardless of insurance (not required at time of visit). If you are going to the ER so often that this becomes unaffordable, either it is not an emergency or your primary care doctor is incompetent. This will greatly reduce the way some people abuse the emergency room.

3. If you are not a citizen of the USA and do not have a Visa, mandate that treatment by hospitals is optional and if the patient is treated, it is the hospitals option to charge up to $500 prior to offering treatment.

4. Stop giving Medicaid to illegal immigrants.

5. Use money from #2, #3, #4 to improve quality of and visibility of current Medicaid & Medicare plans, and use some of it to buffer COBRA costs as well.

Improved healthcare without the destruction a public healthcare plan will cause, while saving money. If you aren't covered by private insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, or COBRA, that means you are likely either an illegal immigrant or are voluntarily electing to not receive healthcare insurance - neither of which is a compelling argument for a public plan.
 
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^Worst idea I've ever seen. It is going to hike up insurers costs if anything.

I'm going to take a wild guess you have never been out of the country. Have you?
If you have, have you fell ill while traveling? Or had a child fall ill while abroad?

The healthcare systems in Europe are amazing. 24 hour on-call pharmacists. No insurance needed. It doesn't matter to them if you are a citizen or not.

The U.S. has an issue with getting it's priorities straight.
 
If we allow the government to control health care, should there be a forced physical every year for every citizen?

Instead of going to work that day, you go to the doctor and have a series of tests ran on you to determine your overall health.

The idea is to focus on preventative measures to reduce major ailments in the future.

Thoughts?
 
I, like many other Americans, only really need auto and home insurance to cover against catastrophies (floods, fires, car wrecks, etc). Similarly, as a healthy, young man, I only really need health insurance in case I get hit by a car. But government mandates force health insurance companies to cover so much other crap that its ridiculously expensive. The only available plans require me to pay for tons of other crap like some old bastard's Viagra or mental health pills that its clear why some people choose to be uninsured. They would, of course, be willing to pay for a private insurance that meets their demands if one existed. Solution: decrease health insurance mandates. Private insurers would see this low coverage market and jump, making competitive plans. I'm smart enough to pick the now simplified insurance plan (because they would only insure a few things) and can now afford it. Maybe i'll have to pay $200 out of pocket every year for a yearly check-up but I spend 4x's that amount on video games. When I get older I'll change coverages. Its that simple to prevent health insurance from turning into the DMV- decrease government intervention.
 
I haven't commented yet in this thread, but I would only offer the thought that the only way we'll see a real change in the current system would be to decouple health insurance from employment. Since most people have insurance that way and those who have it that way like it, I don't see that happening politically, but it's the approach most likely to work.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']But what if there was only one health care provider?[/QUOTE]

you tell me what you think would happen and why.
 
[quote name='tivo']I, like many other Americans, only really need auto and home insurance to cover against catastrophies (floods, fires, car wrecks, etc). Similarly, as a healthy, young man, I only really need health insurance in case I get hit by a car. But government mandates force health insurance companies to cover so much other crap that its ridiculously expensive. The only available plans require me to pay for tons of other crap like some old bastard's Viagra or mental health pills that its clear why some people choose to be uninsured. They would, of course, be willing to pay for a private insurance that meets their demands if one existed. Solution: decrease health insurance mandates. Private insurers would see this low coverage market and jump, making competitive plans. I'm smart enough to pick the now simplified insurance plan (because they would only insure a few things) and can now afford it. Maybe i'll have to pay $200 out of pocket every year for a yearly check-up but I spend 4x's that amount on video games. When I get older I'll change coverages. Its that simple to prevent health insurance from turning into the DMV- decrease government intervention.[/QUOTE]

So your solution to the problem is to decrease the number of low-risk, healthy people buying insurance?

That sounds like a quick and surefire way to bankrupt every health insurance provider - or, contrarily, to exacerbate the problem of high-cost, low-coverage insurance premiums.

I get what you're saying, but I'm stunned that you consider that a logical argument.
 
I think that solution would actually increase the number of "low-risk, healthy people" who would buy insurance.

The fact is, so many people don't buy insurance because coverage is so expensive. One of the main reasons it's so expensive is because of mandates for providers to cover so many things.

For example, I will never, ever, ever need drug rehab. So why should I have to pay for a policy that covers that?

Let's say you're a young girl (early 20's). Let's say you are not sexually active - at all. You're saving yourself for marriage (yes, they do exist). Now, go try to find a policy in virtually any state that doesn't require you to have coverage for pregnancy. I'd bet that adds a pretty penny to the policy.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I think that solution would actually increase the number of "low-risk, healthy people" who would buy insurance.

The fact is, so many people don't buy insurance because coverage is so expensive. One of the main reasons it's so expensive is because of mandates for providers to cover so many things.

For example, I will never, ever, ever need drug rehab. So why should I have to pay for a policy that covers that?

Let's say you're a young girl (early 20's). Let's say you are not sexually active - at all. You're saving yourself for marriage (yes, they do exist). Now, go try to find a policy in virtually any state that doesn't require you to have coverage for pregnancy. I'd bet that adds a pretty penny to the policy.[/QUOTE]

Unclebob you are assuming..

Why don't I flip this and say go try to find an individual policy that includes pregnancy.

Let me give you a few options.

First most all commercial carriers offer the option to remove pregnancy on the group policies, they do not offer (in a lot of states) to remove mental or nervous coverage.

Individual policies normally come without pregnancy, and the ones that offer it as a buy up are basically precharging for the pregnancy.

For example I just quoted someone health insurance and she is 24. She wanted to see what it would cost for her and her husband to have pregnancy..

its about $250 a month more for that coverage. $3000 a year, and it must be in force 3 months prior to becoming pregnant. Another carrier only wanted about $220 a month and they required you were not pregnant for 9 months after getting the rider... so basically its 9 months to get pregnant, and then another 9 months until birth so 18 months at $220 a month premium ~ 4000.. now that was with a $1500 deductible on the birth... so whats that $4000 in prepaid expenses, and then $1500 out of pocket at birth minimum, if you conceive exactly 9 months after getting the rider. Sounds to me like its the close to what you would have paid out of pocket anyway.


Also on Ruin's idea.. medical insurance is very complicated.

Deductibles, both embedded and aggregate for family members, coinsurance at various percentages, ER copays that don't count toward your out of pocket maximums, etc.

Some people say well I have an 80/20 plan... that tells me squat. So basically after your deductible (lets say its $1000), you pay 20% and they (insurance carrier) pays 80%.... but when do you stop paying the 20%?

Each carrier differs, and normally they offer different 80% plans. Some say you split (co-insure) 80/20 to $5000, so the carrier pays $4000 and the insured pays $1000 of the first $5000 in expenses, after the deductible.

Others say its 80/20 of 10,000, or even 12,500, or 20,000 etc... so it sounds the same on the surface but it gets more complicated as you dig deeper.

I have plan offered by Assurant that is a 50% plan. You have a $500 or $1000 deductible then Assurant covers 50% (coinsurance) of the next $2500 in expenses. Then the plan goes to 100%. So if you have the $500 deductible then on the next $2500 you pay $1250, before meeting the out of pocket max (stop loss) then you are only paying $1750 on the first $3000 in expenses. 8 times out of 10 people would rather take a $500 deductible 80/20 of $10,000 then this plan... it makes no sense as you are liable for much more with the 80% plan, but it just sounds better. I hear "80% is more than 50% so I want the 80% plan". I explain it and some people get it, others don't, or just don't care.

My point is, if you lower mandates you are going to complicate things as some people will get limited benefit plans (they exist no actually, Assurant, Aim, etc all have them). They will think they are buying more than they are getting, and it will be too late when the bills come after the fact.

These limited Benefit plans cover some RX, some hospital, and a few office calls a year. They don't cover much more than that. They are guaranteed, and the pricing is fixed.

I am just rambling at this point, but these solutions I hear all have downsides. This is not an easy problem.

As I said before they need to federally mandate all private carriers be level across state lines, no varying state mandates per state. Decide what is to be covered as a bare minimum for Mental/nervous and thats it. Decide what is going to be covered as a min for outpatient rehab, or drug/alcohol, and thats it.

This would allow carriers to streamline and save some money on training, and selling their plans across all state borders.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Let's say you're a young girl (early 20's). Let's say you are not sexually active - at all. You're saving yourself for marriage (yes, they do exist). Now, go try to find a policy in virtually any state that doesn't require you to have coverage for pregnancy. I'd bet that adds a pretty penny to the policy.[/QUOTE]
extremely oversimplified, but fine, I'll play: that increase in her premium goes to pay for other people's pregnancies, as it should. exactly the same way you might be not have electricity and hate anything warm, but you're still gonna have to pay taxes that fund the fire department to save (probably other) people. just like you might never stop by your library or need a cop to track down your rapist but you've still gotta pay for other people to have those services. it's in the best interest of society. it is to further a goal of the state. it is why it must be heavily regulated and, ideally, out of profit-driven hands.
 
I like Ruined's plan. It'll fill the streets with the corpses of poor immigrants; c'mon, who wouldn't want more dead Mexicans?
 
[quote name='Koggit']extremely oversimplified, but fine, I'll play: that increase in her premium goes to pay for other people's pregnancies, as it should. exactly the same way you might be not have electricity and hate anything warm, but you're still gonna have to pay taxes that fund the fire department to save (probably other) people. just like you might never stop by your library or need a cop to track down your rapist but you've still gotta pay for other people to have those services. it's in the best interest of society. it is to further a goal of the state. it is why it must be heavily regulated and, ideally, out of profit-driven hands.[/QUOTE]

So, let's make everyone work as hard as they can, pool all their resources, and redistribute them equally to everyone. Should work out great!
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, let's make everyone work as hard as they can, pool all their resources, and redistribute them equally to everyone. Should work out great![/QUOTE]

I'm back in the USSR
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the US
Back in the US
Back in the USSR
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, let's make everyone work as hard as they can, pool all their resources, and redistribute them equally to everyone. Should work out great![/QUOTE]
or we can have it your way, where everything is private, you pay for what you get, and when a person can't afford costs associated with their pregnancy they file bankruptcy, damaging the nation's economy, threatening your job security & increasing the price of everything you buy. people in poverty can't afford to pay for school or a library or anything so once in poverty you're stuck there, people whose houses get struck by lightning and burn to the ground are then homeless because they couldn't afford a private firefighter, they then rob your house because they can't afford to feed themselves... can you afford the private law enforcement officers to catch the criminal, or will he get away and rob me next?

our government is center-right and has been since the nation was founded, it's worked well and will continue to work well. capitalism cannot always save the day. some things just don't work profit-driven, and it's occasionally in society's best interest to act a little socialist. get over it.
 
fuck no. let's get rid of this socialist program and switch to a system where we pay for services.

My risk is far lower now than it was 5 years ago. I don't see why I should have to pay the same amount for services I simply won't need and don't directly benefit from.

And, should I need service, why not just bill me after the fact? That should put money back in people's pockets immediately.

I'm talking about the police, of course. I don't get a fuckin' thing from paying for them.
 
Funny - that's not "my way" at all. My way has a lot of community involvement through private organizations and includes provisions for the government to provide general welfare, as required by the Constitution.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, let's make everyone work as hard as they can, pool all their resources, and redistribute them equally to everyone. Should work out great![/QUOTE]

For healthcare?

It has worked better than our system for every country that has done so.

Again Economists have basically known for quite a while that there isn't a "market" cure for healthcare problems, information asymmetry being one reason among others.

That doesn't make you a commie, basic economic classes cover market failure and only loons deny its existence.
 
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[quote name='Msut77']For healthcare?

It has worked better than our system for every country that has done so.

Again Economists have basically known for quite a while that there isn't a "market" cure for healthcure, information asymmetry being one reason among others.[/QUOTE]

Pish posh. Are you telling me only 37 countries have switched to socialized medicine?
 
[quote name='Msut77']For healthcare?

It has worked better than our system for every country that has done so.

Again Economists have basically known for quite a while that there isn't a "market" cure for healthcure, information asymmetry being one reason among others.

That doesn't make you a commie, basic economic classes cover market failure and only loons deny its existence.[/QUOTE]
Here are some cases of people going to the US to get care, because they couldn't get care in Canada.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...linda_Stronach_070914/20070914?hub=TopStories
An MP traveled to the US for Breast Cancer surgery.
http://www.komonews.com/news/10216201.html
Carri Ash of Chilliwack, B.C. was sent to the U.S. to have her baby after her water broke on Sunday, ten weeks ahead of schedule.

"And they came in and said 'you're going to Seattle,'" she said.

Ash's hospital couldn't handle the high-risk pregnancy. Doctors searched for another hospital bed, but even hospitals in Vancouver, B.C. didn't have a neo-natal bed.

"So two provinces didn't have enough room, so I have to go to another country," said Ash. .......................
.............And a woman from Calgary, one of the wealthiest cities in Canada, had to travel to Montana to give birth to her identical quadruplets.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132785,00.html
That’s exactly what former champion figure skater Audrey Williams did. After waiting two years for a hip replacement in Vancouver, B.C., she traveled to Washington State and paid $25,000 to stop the pain.
“I couldn’t wait any longer,” the 71-year-old Williams told the National Post. She could barely walk, wasn’t getting enough sleep, and pain pills had upset her stomach. “I wanted a life.”.......................
...................."At the moment," writes CMA president Dr. Albert Schumacher, "millions of Canadians would love to find just one family physician, let alone choose from among several."
Nearly half of doctors and nurses polled in July reported that their patient’s conditions had worsened while waiting for care.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article661794.ece
More than 150 critically ill Canadians – many with life-threatening cerebral hemorrhages – have been rushed to the United States since the spring of 2006 because they could not obtain intensive-care beds here.
Also, big government is not working in Sweden, as evidenced by this article:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0...ide-obama-sweden-public-downsizing_print.html
Also, see this chart:
tele.jpg

http://reason.com/blog/show/122091.html
I think you should check out the comments that people in the UK have about their national health system, and the wait times to get care here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7965785.stm
So, no I wouldn't say that these country's systems work better than ours. However, I also wouldn't say that our system is without problems, and shouldn't be fixed. The problem with this health care debate is that you are given two false choices, neither of which are any good. One is to keep the current system, and two is universal health care. There are more options than those two, although it seems no one wants to acknowledge that.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Here are some cases of people going to the US to get care, because they couldn't get care in Canada.[/quote]

Unless you are going to say there isn't a single person in the US who cannot get care (or has to cross borders to do so) you don't have a point.

An MP traveled to the US for Breast Cancer surgery.

She came here to see a specialist which is not the same thing as "not being able to get care".

Nevermind, instead of anecdotal lets go to your attempts at statistical analysis.

Also, big government is not working in Sweden, as evidenced by this article:Also, see this chart:

Canada and Sweden both have a higher overall life expectancy than us and a greater probability of reaching 60. They also suffer from less Digestive, Heart and Circulatory disease deaths along with Child maltreatment deaths (and they have a lower infant mortality rate).

There is a reason the US comes in 37th place in healthcare system rankings and we spend more for the privilege.

So, no I wouldn't say that these country's systems work better than ours.

You probably wouldn't say that. But that is what an objective look at facts tells us.

The problem with this health care debate is that you are given two false choices, neither of which are any good. One is to keep the current system, and two is universal health care. There are more options than those two, although it seems no one wants to acknowledge that.

There is the magic fairy farts option. I really don't see that one taking off anytime soon.
 
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[quote name='Msut77']There is a reason the US comes in 37th place in healthcare system rankings and we spend more for the privilege.[/QUOTE]

Use your awesome Google searching powers to look up where we rank in the education system and how much more we pay there.

I'll gladly give you socialized medicine if you give up socialized education.
 
A friend of mine, who is quite the Obama supporter and a fan of the Democratic Health Overhaul-Plan-Takeover-Thing and anti "for profit" health care said "Jesus healed for free."

Has anyone else heard this train of thought?

If so, kindly point out to these individuals what I replied with. "All He asked for in return was your eternal soul. Remember that when a politician in a suit offers you free health care."
 
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