Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='docvinh']Whoops, sorry, read it incorrectly.:) So basically would cover major issues, but not routine things, such as checkups and such, right? [/quote]
Yes. Checkups would be payed for out of pocket.
So there would be no money allotted for preventative services, wouldn't that end up increasing it overall since people would wait until there was a major problem before they went to a doctor?
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No. They could go in for a check up if they wanted, and it would cost about the price of a co-pay today. If they needed medical care, it would be covered.
Besides that, it doesn't sound awful, although I'm still not sure how it would affect people with preexisting conditions, would they still be able to turn people down?
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If you had a preexisting condition, you could still be covered, as there would be a large pool of people, with few having preexisting conditions, so it would be absorbed by the pool.
 
http://www.foxnews.com/video/index....alObject=7850499&referralPlaylistId=undefined
Interviewer: Do you think there is a legitimate grassroots opposition going on here?
Pelosi: I think they are Astroturf.... you be the judge.
They're carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare.

Wow, seriously Pelosi? This is worse than that bullshit Bush tried to pull, with "you're either with us or against us" on the War on Terror.
 
Here's the thing: the opposition to these town halls is trying to halt discussion and debate.

They're trying to prevent the spread of information instead of combat it.

If you had a younger brother who would tease you as a child by making noises every time you tried to talk, you'd be at the approximate level of intellectual discourse of these folks.

The White House said Tuesday that some of the anger that Democratic lawmakers have encountered at town hall meetings over the past several days is "manufactured."

"In fact, I think you've had groups today, Conservatives for Patients Rights, that have bragged about organizing and manufacturing that anger," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said.

The debate over President Obama's top domestic priority is escalating as Congress takes a month-long recess. Several lawmakers have been booed, jeered, and occasionally cheered by protesters on their home turfs at town hall meetings on health care reform.

Gibbs singled out Rick Scott, chairman of Conservatives for Patients' Rights, as the ringleader.

"I think you've got somebody who's very involved, a leader of that group that's very involved in the status quo, a CEO that used to run a health care company that was fined by the federal government $1.7 billion for fraud. I think that's a lot of what you need to know about the motives of that group."
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...-democratic-lawmakers-health-care-town-halls/

Yeah, I just quoted Fox.
 
Didn't we just go through the same thing not too long ago with liberal groups being accused of organizing heckles for conservative rally's?

You pretty much can't dissent at a town hall meeting without being called a shill for a lobby.
 
Don't recall that one. Certainly none as organized and thorough at these are.

Maybe Code Pink - but comparing them to the "let's not talk about health care at all" protesters is giving them unwarranted credit.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...-democratic-lawmakers-health-care-town-halls/

Yeah, I just quoted Fox.[/QUOTE]
Wow, now you've got your own little conspiracy theories going. All of the protests we're staged, eh? I highly doubt that there is some vast rightwing lobbyist conspiracy organizing these events. Here's proof there isn't:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...hand-view-of-a-raucous-town-hall-meeting.html
There were no lobbyist-funded buses in the parking lot of Mardela Middle and High School on Tuesday evening, and the hundreds of Eastern Maryland residents who packed the school’s auditorium loudly refuted the notion that their anger over the Democrats’ health care reform plans is “manufactured.”
“I went to school in this school,” a man named Bob told me. “I don't see anyone in this room that isn't from Mardela Springs right now.”
“We’ve been quiet too long,” said a woman named Joan.
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People are pissed off at their government right now. They're sick and tired of these bullshit proposals. Health care bills that supposedly help the poor get care, but take away 11-12% of the poor's income. Cap & Trade bills that do nothing to stop the global warmings, but destroy the economy.
Also, see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Bpshk5nX0
 
I did not say all of them were manufactured. You're debating a point of contention I did not make.

But well organized by the right, with loud and clear messages being dispersed through the internet on how to handle these town halls? You bet.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I did not say all of them were manufactured. You're debating a point of contention I did not make.

But well organized by the right, with loud and clear messages being dispersed through the internet on how to handle these town halls? You bet.[/QUOTE]
Again, you really think these were organized? People are pissed off at the government. Look at Congress and Obama's approval ratings. They're terrible!
 
@ myke

I'm not gonna lie, you must have better google then me. Because I've been trying to find a site explaining what to do at these town halls and I haven't seen it yet. Hook a brother up.

[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Again, you really think these were organized? People are pissed off at the government. Look at Congress and Obama's approval ratings. They're terrible![/QUOTE]

Obama's ratings aren't horrible, just dropping pretty fast.
 
The more I think about this the more I think we need a basic system down..

I am going to go opposite of Fullmetalfan720.
Why cover just major things? We already do that, if you have a heart attach guess what, regardless if you have medical insurance you are taken care of at a local hospital. cant pay the bill oh well.

We need to provide a basic office visit, preventative, and RX plan. Maybe limit the RX, or put a deductible on it, Then put a flat copay for standard doctors, and then another one for a specialist. Preventative needs to be covered up to a certain limit, say $500 per person, per year, for just a copay.

This way people can get in and get the standard prevention, and some visits to monitor their diabetes, etc. Some RX coverage so they are keeping things in check... not letting them get to emergency room status.

From that point they can buy up, similar to how Medicare supplement (medigap) policies work. Offer a selection of policies from the private carriers. Mandate that the base Private insurer policy has X for minimums and go from there.

The tax fines or incentives can all be worked into this. As if the individual or business that does not pick up or provide these plans, gets fines, fees, or tax credits, or breaks. Should you decide to forgo the public base option there needs to be some sort of verification process in place.. think license plate renewals, as an option off the top of my head.

Maybe even activate a 1 per year checkup as a minimum... this may appease the doctors as they will see many more patients, and therefore will not have a large drop in income, if the government mandates lower allowable physician charges per visit.

This once a year checkup really needs to be a full workup of cholesterol, A1C levels, etc. So peolple are aware of what is going on, maybe a similar checkup that is done by the life insurance carrier when they qualify a person for coverage. Its pretty comprehensive.


The other thing that needs to be addressed is the state variations in coverage. Some mandate pregnancy, some mandate Mental nervous, others do not. There plans are all variations of each other and that takes a lot of time and money to understand.

You have insurance companies coming up with 52 options if they are large enough to provide coverage in each state, they then have 10+ options per each state. Then you have the situation of family members not understanding why they get certain things but another family member does not in another state, Let alone the agents that need to get licensed in each state before they can sell..

If you had a federal ruling on minimums etc, then it would be streamlined, cut costs, and allow for many professionals for all states to emerge.

They are going to treat this a lot like Workers Compensation insurance in regards to the employer relation to that, and mandated (in most states, unless you are a sole proprietor). Large fees if you do not provide this.

Thats just my take on this after thinking on it for a while.
 
Speaking of manufactured "astroturf" campaigns...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25779.html

Dan Pfeiffer, the White House deputy communications director, said: “We intend to use a lot of the grassroots viral Internet techniques from the campaign to beat back the campaign of misstatements and outright falsehoods about the president’s efforts to reform health insurance.”
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Are they saying that Obama's campaign was all astroturfed? And they're going to use this same method to get health care socialized?
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']@ myke

I'm not gonna lie, you must have better google then me. Because I've been trying to find a site explaining what to do at these town halls and I haven't seen it yet. Hook a brother up.[/QUOTE]

http://www.cprights.org/2009/07/town-hall-alert.php

http://www.cprights.org/townhalls.php

http://www.freedomworks.org/publications/august-recess-town-hall-meetings

http://www.freedomworks.org/files/aug action kit.pdf

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/townhallactionmemo.pdf (this is a key one)

Yep. Must have a better google. That must be it.
 
The first four are pretty common grassroots organizing stuff. Nothing the Dems haven't done before.

The last one is the...erm...money shot, if that should be applied to political discussion. And it perhaps should be.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Didn't we just go through the same thing not too long ago with liberal groups being accused of organizing heckles for conservative rally's?

You pretty much can't dissent at a town hall meeting without being called a shill for a lobby.[/QUOTE]

Is a town hall meeting really a forum for debate?

Standing up and shouting down a speaker isn't civil.

Standing up after the speaker has finished and announcing behind a podium or whatever prop there is that the representative hasn't read the bill is civil.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Again, you really think these were organized?[/quote]

All of them organized/paid for? No.

A lot of them organized/paid for? Yes.

That is the reality. Deal with it.

People are pissed off at the government. Look at Congress and Obama's approval ratings. They're terrible!
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Obama is still above 50% which is historically fairly high, Bush couldn't break 30% for years.

Newsflash healthcare reform is still wildly popular even with people being fed lies about plans to euthanize grandma.
 
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42 percent now say that the president’s plan is a bad idea, which is a 10-point increase since last month. Thirty-six percent say it’s a good idea.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32206998/ns/politics-white_house/

Wildly popular, and that was two weeks ago.

Obama is still above 50% which is historically fairly high, Bush couldn't break 30% for years.
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It's no where near historically high, or even fairly high. If anything it's average at best. Bush didn't drop under 50% until 3 1/2 years into his first term.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']Wildly popular, and that was two weeks ago.[/quote]

I am not saying conservative disinformation has been a total failure yet still somewhere around 70% of Americans still support reform.

It's no where near historically high, or even fairly high.
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There is basically always a drop around this time and considering the economic climate right now the numbers are pretty damn good.

Bush didn't drop under 50% until 3 1/2 years into his first term.
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Not really, he had more than a few at 45% some odd percent in his first six months.

Without 9/11 and the beginning of the Iraq war his numbers were pretty dismal, at best barely equaling Clinton's average rating or even during the Lewinsky scandal.

There is really no downplaying years of sub-35% approval ratings.
 
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[quote name='perdition(troy']I'm not downplaying any numbers.[/quote]

Horse Manure.

And for the record, bush's numbers were higher then clinton's when he took office, before and after 9/11.
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Clinton earned his high approval rating just like Bush earned his low ones.
 
The fact that I'm sitting here making specific arguments based on facts on numbers and then you go "ya but" and spew your nonsense.

I don't have a problem reading posts by someone who actually backs up statements with facts/numbers that relate and support their stance (ie myke), but trying to have any sort of conversation with you is pointless.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']The fact that I'm sitting here making specific arguments based on facts...[/quote]

I believe the word you are looking for is factoid.

and then you go "ya but" and spew your nonsense.
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Cry more.

P.s. If anyone has a right to bitch about facts getting ignored and nonsense spewed in this thread, it is me.
 
[quote name='Msut77']All of them organized/paid for? No.

A lot of them organized/paid for? Yes.

That is the reality. Deal with it.[/quote]
Great, now the Democrats have their own conspiracy theory that people are being paid to go to town halls and say they are against Obamacare. Do you have any evidence to back this up? I like how this theory is somehow credible, but when you talk about Obama's science czar writing a textbook that talks about putting sterilants in the water, and forcably sterilizing people, with proof, its a conspiracy theory.

Obama is still above 50% which is historically fairly high, Bush couldn't break 30% for years.

Newsflash healthcare reform is still wildly popular even with people being fed lies about plans to euthanize grandma.
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Obama is dropping faster than any president ever, and also has the lowest approval rating at this time in any president's term, since this polling was started.
People for Healthcare reform ≠ People for Obamacare
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Great, now the Democrats have their own conspiracy theory that people are being paid to go to town halls and say they are against Obamacare.[/quote]

I like how you whine about people not taking you seriously and then you use terms like Obamacare in all seriousness.

It got old back when cons were fighting "Hillarycare" and it is all the same playbook going back to the fight against medicare.


Do you have any evidence to back this up?
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Yes.

I am certain it has been posted in this thread already how the groups being talked about are funded by drug and insurance companies, it really isn't hidden.

It is just another case of you having literally zero idea of what you are talking about.

Again I am not saying all, but certainly a lot of them and apparently the ones who are being the most disruptive.
 
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Do you know how many more people watch an entire channel (fox news) vs one show (Daily show)?

That left side of the picture is horribly misleading. A better comparison would be viewers of foxnews vs viewers of comedy central.
 
The 89 vs 07 chart is of signifigance too though.

It shows that, no matter what source of news, a good chunk of people just don't have a clue. But, and this makes me worry, they retain the right to vote.
 
[quote name='HowStern']It shows that, no matter what source of news, a good chunk of people just don't have a clue. But, and this makes me worry, they retain the right to vote.[/QUOTE]
Amen.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I like how you whine about people not taking you seriously and then you use terms like Obamacare in all seriousness.[/quote]
What else should I call it?
Yes.

I am certain it has been posted in this thread already how the groups being talked about are funded by drug and insurance companies, it really isn't hidden.

It is just another case of you having literally zero idea of what you are talking about.

Again I am not saying all, but certainly a lot of them and apparently the ones who are being the most disruptive.
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Could you please link proof that the people were payed off? Can you link to proof that the people at these rallies employed by drug companies, and insurance companies? You've got about as much proof right now as the Birthers.
"He hasn't released his long form birth certificate yet! He's not born here!"
"They're protesting Obamacare! They must be paid by drug and insurance companies!"
[quote name='HowStern']The 89 vs 07 chart is of signifigance too though.

It shows that, no matter what source of news, a good chunk of people just don't have a clue. But, and this makes me worry, they retain the right to vote.[/QUOTE]
Seriously? You think some people shouldn't have the right to vote? You've got to be fucking kidding me.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']What else should I call it?[/quote]

Nice to know Bob hasn't cornered the market on stupid questions.

Could you please link proof that the people were payed off?
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I am pretty sure I have already.

Can you link to proof that the people at these rallies employed by drug companies, and insurance companies?
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Here is another link:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/31/recess-harassment-memo/

here is just a pretty damn good link:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/li...whos-funding-anti-reform-effort.php?ref=fpblg


You have the whole "don't debate anything intelligently" part down pat. How much they paying you?

You've got about as much proof right now as the Birthers.
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Usually Birthers and Baggers are one and the same.

Aren't you a Ron Paul supporter?

Maybe you guys would have done better if you realized volume and obnoxiousness isn't a substitute for having most of the electorate behind you.
 
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[quote name='Msut77']Nice to know Bob hasn't cornered the market on stupid questions.



I am pretty sure I have already.



Here is another link:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/31/recess-harassment-memo/

You have the whole "don't debate anything intelligently" part down pat. How much they paying you?[/quote]
I don't see any proof that the health care industry is secretly paying people to go to town halls to boo politicians. All I see is "leaked" memos, that detail how to "disrupt" town halls. No evidence people are being paid off.
Also, in case you still think its a left-right issue, it isn't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i92zmYCd81s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJQVNXfKujc
People are fed up with their government. And here you are spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories about a vast health care industry conspiracy.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']I don't see any proof that the health care industry is secretly paying people to go to town halls to boo politicians.[/quote]

Did you happen to see the part where these organizations are backed by the companies I mentioned?

That a lot of these people are bused around i.e. not even constituents.

All I see is "leaked" memos, that detail how to "disrupt" town halls.
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Unnecessary quote marks are unnecessary.

Also, in case you still think its a left-right issue, it isn't:
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There isn't any doubt it is overwhelmingly a pathetic attempt at right wing populism.

People are fed up with their government.
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I don't really value the opinion of a Ron Paul supporter as to what the pulse of the American electorate is.

And here you are spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories about a vast health care industry conspiracy.
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It isn't as if they don't have a motive, heck as I pointed it isn't really even hidden.

That is the reality, learn to deal with it.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Did you happen to see the part where these organizations are backed by the companies I mentioned?[/QUOTE]
No, I did not happen to see the part where it said people were being paid off by drug and insurance companies to go around the country and protest at town halls. Could you please quote that part?
There isn't any doubt it is overwhelmingly a pathetic attempt at right wing populism.
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Because the Democratic party never lies, and is full of sunshine and happy things? And there aren't any people out there who are pissed off at what's going on right now? I suppose all the liberals I know must really be drug company lobbyists? Along with most of America?


It isn't as if they don't have a motive, heck as I pointed it isn't really even hidden.

That is the reality, learn to deal with it.
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And Barack Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya, in 1961, and his parents worked with major Democratic leaders to pretend he was born in America, so he could one day become president. OMG MOTIVE! ITS ALL TRUE!
ITS REALITY LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT!
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']No, I did not happen to see the part...[/quote]

Is it because you are intentionally ignoring the fact that these "grassroot" groups are nothing of the sort? Because it does matter.

And there aren't any people out there who are pissed off at what's going on right now?
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Are you referring to those against healthcare reform? As if there wouldn't be millions more who were pissed off because nothing was done.

I suppose all the liberals I know must really be drug company lobbyists? Along with most of America?
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Yes "most" of America is just waiting to associate with the likes of you and join the Ron Paul Revolution and the Librarian Party.

Maybe if you were able to argue a case you might peel off a few.

No chance of that happening though.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Is it because you are intentionally ignoring the fact that these "grassroot" groups are nothing of the sort? Because it does matter.[/quote]
Where is your evidence? If I yell "go buy Grand Theft Auto 4!" in Downtown Minneapolis, the day before it comes out, does that mean that I organized a shadowy conspiracy to pay people to buy GTA 4?


Are you referring to those against healthcare reform? As if there wouldn't be millions more who were pissed off because nothing was done.
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People for healthcare reform does not equal people for Obamacare. I am referring to the amount of people who are simply fed up with this bullshit two headed one party system.
BTW, you want to hurl anymore insults at me? You sound exactly like the Bush, that your Beloved, and holy, and great, Democratic party that attacked him for these tactics. Now what do they do when they are in power? The same fucking thing.
Yes "most" of America is just waiting to associate with the likes of you and join the Ron Paul Revolution and the Librarian Party.

Maybe if you were able to argue a case you might peel off a few.

No chance of that happening though.
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I suppose Jesse Ventura's election was a sham?
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Where is your evidence?[/quote]

In the links I posted.

Feel free to choose to believe whatever you wish since that is what the outcome would be either way.

People for healthcare reform does not equal people for Obamacare.
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People in this country are overwhelmingly for healthcare reform, some get a little wary when they start to hear an unending amount of lies against reform but then here we are.

I am referring to the amount of people who are simply fed up with this bullshit two headed one party system.
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I have no doubt that there are people who genuinely feel that way (not that you know I actually care) but there are many who merely hide behind that particular form of rhetoric when convenient.

BTW, you want to hurl anymore insults at me?
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"Want" isn't the word I would use.

Besides it isn't really an insult to point that you are incapable of articulating a point.

That would be that pesky reality again.

You sound exactly like the Bush
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I am so burned.
 
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[quote name='AdultLink']The reality you avoid?[/QUOTE]

Oh?

What would you consider "clear cut" 80% favoring reform? 90%?

P.s. Did you even read all of what was in the link you posted? It does have a lot of good information especially on how medicare warps the debate in what one would consider a completely irrational way.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Oh?

What would you consider "clear cut" 80% favoring reform? 90%?

P.s. Did you even read all of what was in the link you posted? It does have a lot of good information especially on how medicare warps the debate in what one would consider a completely irrational way.[/QUOTE]

Did YOU read the part where, while the majority of people want healthcare reform, most would not want it NOW or think it's going to hurt them?
 
And btw, Msut77... you seem born yesterday, so I will remind you of all the hatred people had of Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter.....

It's grown all the time. It isn't hatred of republicans, it's politicians.

People voted in the democrats to fix the issue Bush caused, and people are losing jobs, and Obama really can't keep blaming Bush.

These politicians should be assuring people, not blaming the other party.

Maybe you should stop kissing the democrats asses long enough to realize, maybe people are simply tired of these political games?
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Did YOU read the part where, while the majority of people want healthcare reform, most would not want it NOW[/quote]

So you are resting your sorry cap locks abusing argument on the fact that some supporters people are willing to wait a bit?

You didn't answer my question btw, what do you consider clear cut? 98%?

or think it's going to hurt them?
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That really isn't what the link says, the "no change" group a fair amount of whom are probably covered by medicare already skew the numbers a bit.

Perhaps you should read it a bit more carefully.
 
[quote name='Msut77']So you are resting your sorry cap locks abusing argument on the fact that some supporters people are willing to wait a bit?

You didn't answer my question btw, what do you consider clear cut? 98%?



That really isn't what the link says, the "no change" group a fair amount of whom are probably covered by medicare already skew the numbers a bit.

Perhaps you should read it a bit more carefully.[/QUOTE]

Sorry caps lock abusing argument? Your 'facts' are based on people PROBABLY using medicare, and conspiracies over health care.

Probably isn't a factual argument, and neither are your conspiracies.
 
The simple fact is, you want to make this into a conspiracy of the health care/republicans.

The real facts are, people voted Obama WITH PRIDE, only to have:

A 700 billion bailout that gave rich people a new yacht while millions suffer and lose jobs
A president who calls police actions 'stupid' for arresting a black man
Constant arrests of republican and democrat politicians

People are tired of both sides running our country. We were promised stuff, all we got is more bickering.
 
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