Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='AdultLink']Your 'facts' are based on people PROBABLY using medicare[/quote]

That and the idiocy of you pretending people are willing to wait a bit for reform means something.

Anyhoo...

Probably isn't a factual argument
Click to expand...

Neither is your abuse of polling data.

Millions of Americans (30% of insured Americans) are covered by one government plan or another including the vast majority of elderly.

Saying that having many of those people filed under "no change" (or the ones that think reform will hurt medicare also discussed in the link) skews things significantly is more probable than probably.
 
[quote name='Msut77']That and the idiocy of you pretending people are willing to wait a bit for reform means something.

Anyhoo...



Neither is your abuse of polling data.

Millions of Americans (30% of insured Americans) are covered by one government plan or another including the vast majority of elderly.

Saying that having many of those people filed under "no change" (or the ones that think reform will hurt medicare also discussed in the link) skews things significantly is more probable than probably.[/QUOTE]

Yet you still don't have this wonderful thing called PROOF.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Do you define proof as poorly as you define "clear cut"?

The link (heh) you post, the meta link talks a great deal about how those covered under medicare warp the debate in unexpected ways.

Such as here:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121982/Seniors-Skeptical-Healthcare-Reform.aspx

Apparently you really didn't do your homework.

Way to fail.[/QUOTE]

Way to fail? All you've done is ASSume that people with medicare vote for no change, and people without vote for change.

You don't have proof on this, and sorry to say, but knowing my mother and her friends, I know plenty who would disagree.

Or even if you meant people with medicare would vote for change, your arguing over proof you don't have, on a poll made to random people. You talk about fail, but you are arguing over 'facts' you made up in your head.
 
Paul Krugman nails it on the head in his latest op-ed.

The irony of screaming "THIS IS AMERICA!" during a town hall on health care, with the goal of said shouting being to put a halt to discussing the issue, is not lost on me.

Then again, the fact that so much of this debate is flush with ridiculous misinformation and attacks with no basis in reality that seem to be what shapes the public's opinions wasn't lost on me either.

When half your town hall is on medicare, and three fourths of the town hall is there to oppose a government-run program, I'd say you have probable cause to doubt the intellectual underpinnings of the public's opinions.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Paul Krugman nails it on the head in his latest op-ed.

The irony of screaming "THIS IS AMERICA!" during a town hall on health care, with the goal of said shouting being to put a halt to discussing the issue, is not lost on me.

Then again, the fact that so much of this debate is flush with ridiculous misinformation and attacks with no basis in reality that seem to be what shapes the public's opinions wasn't lost on me either.

When half your town hall is on medicare, and three fourths of the town hall is there to oppose a government-run program, I'd say you have probable cause to doubt the intellectual underpinnings of the public's opinions.[/QUOTE]

The main issue isn't people being dumb. Like the gallup poll on health care, people want reform. The problem is, today people don't trust their politicians.

Because of that, we're at a standstill. People want reform but don't want politicians to do it.
 
Am I the only one who is seeing the PR disaster in the making for the Democrats' hands here?

The quotes are all over the place on this one. Here's a quote from Pelosi: "carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare." Excuse me? Am I missing something here? Anyone seeing any swastikas in any videos for these events?

Video source: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas.html

If they get a public option, there is going to be a massive shitstorm the likes of which no one can predict. If there isn't one, people will claim they're weak.
 
[quote name='AdultLink']The main issue isn't people being dumb. Like the gallup poll on health care, people want reform. The problem is, today people don't trust their politicians.

Because of that, we're at a standstill. People want reform but don't want politicians to do it.[/QUOTE]

When you have a substantial portion of people (anecdotally, mind) who are simultaneously on government-run health-care and scared of politicians getting their hands on their health-care then you absolutely have a gap between intelligent disagreement of the program and people who have opinions but no real information guiding them.

It also doesn't change that those opposed to government-run health care are, rather than attempting to debate the merits of it, preventing the conversation from happening. It's not a matter of "here's the entertaining stuff for the dumb plebes to watch on CNN/Fox/MSNBC, and here's some real boring stuff but actual news on NPR," like it normally is in the world. It's a matter of "we have an opinion, and we're going to stop you from talking." Which is a whole other level of appalling.

It's embarrassing and shameful.
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Way to fail?[/quote]

It is blindingly obvious you either never read all that you linked to or don't really understand it.

So yeah fail is as good word as any.

As an aside Arthur Laffer recently displayed the mental acumen that supply siders are known for saying "Just wait till you see Medicare, Medicaid ... done by the government".
 
This whole abortion thing is really going to be an issue... I bet this may be one thing that really slows this down, if not kills it entirely.
 
fuck that. Democrats have 8 years of paying for shit we never wanted and were morally opposed to under our belts. And that's just 8 of the past 8 years.

Let's talk about government funding for things we disagree with...Iraq, Guantanamo, Rendition, faith-based initiatives, blackwater, halliburton, corrections corporation of america, aig, bank of america...and I'm sure hundreds of other moments.
 
Looks like I may be wrong: Democrat blogs/orgs (TPM specifically) are apparently organizing the protest groups at the town hall meetings.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Am I the only one who is seeing the PR disaster in the making for the Democrats' hands here?

The quotes are all over the place on this one. Here's a quote from Pelosi: "carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare." Excuse me? Am I missing something here? Anyone seeing any swastikas in any videos for these events?

Video source: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas.html

If they get a public option, there is going to be a massive shitstorm the likes of which no one can predict. If there isn't one, people will claim they're weak.[/QUOTE]

s-STROLLER-large.jpg


s-WASILLAKID-large.jpg
 
Any story to go with those shots?

Also, the second shot...not seeing it.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see the above links. Alrighty then.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Any story to go with those shots?

Also, the second shot...not seeing it.[/QUOTE]

They were at the town halls protesting Pelosi, healthcare and whatever else Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh told them was evil.

The kid's shirt in the second pic says "Hitler made great speeches too" while throwing up a Heil Hitler salute.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Any story to go with those shots?

Also, the second shot...not seeing it.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see the above links. Alrighty then.[/QUOTE]

and here's another...and I apologize for the ugliness of the other pic attached to it, hope no one's eating while viewing this post:

r-LIMBAUGH-large.jpg
 
[quote name='lawdood']They were at the town halls protesting Pelosi, healthcare and whatever else Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh told them was evil.

The kid's shirt in the second pic says "Hitler made great speeches too" while throwing up a Heil Hitler salute.[/QUOTE]

Well, the salute is entirely missed because of poor camera work. The shirt I've seen before.

Let me say this: The line from Pelosi still shouldn't have been said. Why? Because there are many uninformed Americans who will see and hear that quote and say "fuck this bill" and not question it further because it isn't worth their time to find out, don't have the time or they don't want to know and will accept the quote as fact. From a PR perspective, it's a head shaker.
 
Wow, this is really fucked up. Not only do they pack the town hall with their people, but afterwards, one of the union people who they let in starts beating up a protester.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVJYc5Bjyg
Kenneth Gladney, 38, a conservative activist from St. Louis, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with "Don't tread on me" printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room at St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was awaiting treatment for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack.

"It just seems there's no freedom of speech without being attacked," he said.
Click to expand...
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...760B001142AC?OpenDocument#tp_newCommentAnchor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Well, the salute is entirely missed because of poor camera work. The shirt I've seen before.

Let me say this: The line from Pelosi still shouldn't have been said. Why? Because there are many uninformed Americans who will see and hear that quote and say "fuck this bill" and not question it further because it isn't worth their time to find out, don't have the time or they don't want to know and will accept the quote as fact. From a PR perspective, it's a head shaker.[/QUOTE]

No, the PR nightmare is the GOP and conservative groups led by millionaires and the health insurance industry hiring people to shout down town hall meetings and then trying to claim they're just average, grassroots inspired citizens.

When you don't have facts, go the juvenile and ignorant route I guess...

[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Wow, this is really fucked up. Not only do they pack the town hall with their people, but afterwards, one of the union people who they let in starts beating up a protester.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it is really fuck ed up when the GOP and the health insurance industry packs the town halls with plants looking to drown out real citizens with real questions.
 
[quote name='lawdood']No, the PR nightmare is the GOP and conservative groups led by millionaires and the health insurance industry hiring people to shout down town hall meetings and then trying to claim they're just average, grassroots inspired citizens.

When you don't have facts, go the juvenile and ignorant route I guess...



Yeah, it is really fuck ed up when the GOP and the health insurance industry packs the town halls with plants looking to drown out real citizens with real questions.[/QUOTE]
Do you have any evidence people are being hired to do this? It looks like the Obamacare proponents are doing this, however, as seen in the videos I posted.
 
[quote name='lawdood']
Yeah, it is really fuck ed up when the GOP and the health insurance industry packs the town halls with plants looking to drown out real citizens with real questions.[/QUOTE]
Oh sure. And I suppose no one was beat up?
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Do you have any evidence people are being hired to do this? It looks like the Obamacare proponents are doing this, however, as seen in the videos I posted.[/QUOTE]

Read the news dude, do just some minor research. Freedom Works led by Dick Armey and other groups aligned with the health care industry are behind these disruptions. Or do you only believe and read about what fits your already held beliefs?

[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Oh sure. And I suppose no one was beat up?[/QUOTE]

And I suppose no one on the right is calling and making death threats?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/07/obama-allied-unions-threa_n_254204.html
 
[quote name='lawdood']No, the PR nightmare is the GOP and conservative groups led by millionaires and the health insurance industry hiring people to shout down town hall meetings and then trying to claim they're just average, grassroots inspired citizens.

When you don't have facts, go the juvenile and ignorant route I guess...

Yeah, it is really fuck ed up when the GOP and the health insurance industry packs the town halls with plants looking to drown out real citizens with real questions.[/QUOTE]

Looks more like the Obamacare people organized with the purple shirts causing crap, not the average people who just plain think Obamacare sucks (which is the majority according to multiple polls now, btw).

Hell I might go to one of these meetings now, not going to let some government sponsored army crap on my rights; will stop at Walmart and see if I can snag a purple shirt with yellow typeface lol.
 
[quote name='lawdood']Read the news dude, do just some minor research. Freedom Works led by Dick Armey and other groups aligned with the health care industry are behind these disruptions. Or do you only believe and read about what fits your already held beliefs?
[/QUOTE]

Get a grip, I guess there is a senior citizen conspiracy at the AARP also?
http://www.breitbart.tv/aarp-reps-c...icipants-refuse-to-keep-their-comments-quiet/
Some "listening session," eh?

Face it, Obamacare is unwanted care!! Hopefully there is just as violent reaction to Cap & trade as well, another disaster of an idea! People aren't going to sit down and get spoon fed BS.

So long as they try to ram the public option through, IMO people will fight back.
 
[quote name='Ruined'] People aren't going to sit down and get spoon fed BS.

[/QUOTE]


Funny because they are.

Then they ask the people around them if they want to try a taste. Using terms like "Obamacare."
 
[quote name='HowStern']Funny because they are.

Then they ask the people around them if they want to try a taste. Using terms like "Obamacare."[/QUOTE]
What else do you want me to call it? Please tell me.

[quote name='lawdood']Read the news dude, do just some minor research. Freedom Works led by Dick Armey and other groups aligned with the health care industry are behind these disruptions. Or do you only believe and read about what fits your already held beliefs?[/QUOTE]
I don't see anything in the news that says people are being paid to protest Obamacare.


And I suppose no one on the right is calling and making death threats?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/07/obama-allied-unions-threa_n_254204.html
Click to expand...
"That, or you all are gonna come up against the Second Amendment."
Click to expand...
That sounds like a shitty death threat. Plus, no one has been injured by a death threat.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Get a grip, I guess there is a senior citizen conspiracy at the AARP also?
http://www.breitbart.tv/aarp-reps-c...icipants-refuse-to-keep-their-comments-quiet/
Some "listening session," eh?

Face it, Obamacare is unwanted care!! Hopefully there is just as violent reaction to Cap & trade as well, another disaster of an idea! People aren't going to sit down and get spoon fed BS.

So long as they try to ram the public option through, IMO people will fight back.[/QUOTE]

No, they only accept spoon feeding from the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. :lol:

Please link me to facts that show the majority of people don't want health care reform.
 
This conversation is absurd.

We're talking about stifling ideas and preventing debate, and it's turned into a "Yes you did"/"no we didn't" session of fucking nonsense.

You know what I read today? This. (skip the video, go read the summary.)

17% of Americans believe they have a "major problem" with their weight. 49% believe there's no problem at all. The bulk of the remainder consider it a "minor problem."

So there you have perception. Most Americans do not perceive their weight to be an issue.

Now, what's that perception mean on the other side?

This.

34% of Americans were obese in Jan. 2009, and just under 33% overweight - meaning 2 out of every 3 citizens is either overweight or obese.

This is not perception. This is fact. The fact is that 67% of the country is overweight or obese.

Let's go back and look at the numbers, shall we?

Perceived:
17% Their weight is a major problem
33% Their weight is a minor problem
49% Their weight is not a problem at all

Fact:
34% Are obese
32.7% Are overweight

What's this have to do with health care?

Well, as it pertains to the health of the nation, quite a bit. As it pertains to my point, it's that perception ≠ facts. I refuse to stand behind uninformed people, whether they agree with me or not. We aren't having a genuine debate. We're making posterboards instead of exchanging ideas, we're using phrases like "Obamacare"/socialized medicine instead of discussing what the provisions of the bill are. We're hand selecting comparisons to suit out conclusion, and not considering comparisons that contradict them. We're allowing opponents of a government plan to live in the naivete that medicare is not a government plan; we'd rather have allies on our side than expose them to the fact that they're against a policy that they are currently the beneficiary of.

I'm fucking sick of the misinformation, of the lies, and of the talk y'all are throwing down. You have nothing but lies about cost, lies about eugenics (FFS!), lies about rationing.

You are happy to ally yourselves with a woefully uninformed public who can't confront a fact to save their lives, refuse to point out the inherent contradictions of the way they live and what they believe, fill them full of propaganda, and prevent discourse from happening.

And you DARE to call yourself a proud American. You have the NERVE to call this democracy in action.

You're scared to death of having a civil discussion on facts, on the problems of the current system, and of being confronted with the facts of the plan. You oppose something and, frankly, none of you opponents know a thing about it.

fuck you all.
 
Myke: Here's the deal - any plan that includes: A) Forced confiscation of private property by gunpoint for redistribution or B) Forced purchasing of health insurance coverage (and yes, fining people if they don't have insurance counts just the same) - simply will not be okay with some of us. THIS is a FACT.

Everything else is a distraction. Period.
 
Except that your broad metaphorical description of A, in order to remain philosophically consistent (and therefore valuable), must imply any form of taxation whatsoever. It's a red herring argument since the "forced confiscation...by gunpoint" is a way to describe any taxation.

And the federal plan does not involve B. Coverage is not mandatory.
 
Myke.

Is that based off the AMA definitions of overweight or obese? Could it be possible that just like the recent mileage revision given to all autos, could be applied to these statistics? Does the old methodology or calculations need to be thrown out and re adjusted?

Not trying to jump ship on where your headed, but that would explain some of the differences.
 
[quote name='UncleBob'] or B) Forced purchasing of health insurance coverage (and yes, fining people if they don't have insurance counts just the same) - simply will not be okay with some of us. THIS is a FACT.
[/QUOTE]


Not unlike the idea that you can get huge fines and forced into an insurance plan if you get caught not having insurance on your car? I take it you are very much against this.
 
[quote name='gareman']Not unlike the idea that you can get huge fines and forced into an insurance plan if you get caught not having insurance on your car? I take it you are very much against this.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but forcing people to at least have liability insurance for their automobile is necessary to protect other people from potentially reckless mistakes you might make, rather then to protect yourself. You're not forced to have full coverage unless you're financing your car and it's a required part of the terms. If a person chooses not to have health insurance, it's not harming anyone else. If a person doesn't have liability insurance on their car, then they are putting other people at risk.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Myke: Here's the deal - any plan that includes: A) Forced confiscation of private property by gunpoint for redistribution or B) Forced purchasing of health insurance coverage (and yes, fining people if they don't have insurance counts just the same) - simply will not be okay with some of us. THIS is a FACT.

Everything else is a distraction. Period.[/QUOTE]


Even if coverage was mandatory(it isn't), you would be against this?
So, you don't mind paying for the obese, the smokers, and the drinkers? Don't you think they should pay their own way or be fined?
Because right now that guy out there somewhere that is collecting disability checks for being too fat is having his medical bill footed by us.
 
[quote name='spmahn']Yeah, but forcing people to at least have liability insurance for their automobile is necessary to protect other people from potentially reckless mistakes you might make, rather then to protect yourself. You're not forced to have full coverage unless you're financing your car and it's a required part of the terms. If a person chooses not to have health insurance, it's not harming anyone else. If a person doesn't have liability insurance on their car, then they are putting other people at risk.[/QUOTE]

You SERIOUSLY think not having health insurance doesn't put other people at risk of having to pay for their health problems down the line? :lol:
 
Snake2715:

Based on BMI. Overweight = BMI >25, Obese = BMI > 30.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/hestats/overweight/overwght_adult_03.htm

I think BMI is a poor measure since it's nothing more than a height/weight ratio (i.e., two people of the same height/weight have the same BMI, but could be massively different in terms of their physical appearance). Nevertheless, that's a huge disparity b/w perception and reality, unless we're a nation of bodybuilders.
 
Anyone else get a chuckle on the irony from the republicans lately? I.e. they stating government run health care is bad because the government will get between you and your doctor and now they demand any public option not cover abortions which last I checked (regardless of ones personal beliefs) is a legal medical condition that is decided between you and your doctor.


I dont have insurance now, and when my ex had an abortion many years ago it was out of pocket for privacy, do insurance policies usually cover abortions?
 
[quote name='lawdood']No, they only accept spoon feeding from the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. :lol:

Please link me to facts that show the majority of people don't want health care reform.[/QUOTE]

Unlike people such as yourself, who seem to want to spam message boards by regurgitating White House talking points about the protests.

And nice, careful wording on that link request. Clearly you know full well most people want health-care reform, but don't like the Democrats' plans. That's easy enough to find in any current poll, where over 50 percent consistently disagree with Obama's handling of the issue (and therefore the Democrats' plans).

I think we should all be able to agree on two things:

1. People shouting down others and preventing discussion at town halls are not behaving civilly.

2. There is a lot of emotion and protest because many people don't like the current plans going through Congress on health care, not because a relatively small number of people riled up by the likes of Dick Armey are blanketing the country.

As a side note, myke, I don't trust those obesity/overweight (over whose weight, I always wondered?) statistics. Any measure that has folks like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura classified as "obese" has something very wrong with it.
 
You're operating under the presumption that Americans are actually informed as to the contents of the bill as proposed, and also ignoring that a large portion of people are simply opposed to "government-run health care." You know, the same folks who are disproportionately elderly, and therefore disproportionately on medicare?

;)

As for the BMI, it has its shortcomings without a doubt - but like I said, unless we're a nation of bodybuilders, then the disparity between those findings and people's perceptions of their weight problems is enormous. Lotsa cognitive dissonance at work there.

(Also, its not over "whose" weight, it's over a mean healthy weight for someone of that age/height/sex.)
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Unlike people such as yourself, who seem to want to spam message boards by regurgitating White House talking points about the protests.

[/QUOTE]

Anytime you want to repudiate any of the so called "talking points" I've regurgitated with facts and links...I'm all eyes.
 
[quote name='lawdood']Anytime you want to repudiate any of the so called "talking points" I've regurgitated with facts and links...I'm all eyes.[/QUOTE]

Don't hold your breath. All you will get is lies and intentional ignorance from the con clown car crew, oh and the occasional stupid question that doesn't actually go anywhere.

------------

The odious Sarah Palin posted this pack of disinformation on her facebook today:

...who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil... Health care by definition involves life and death decisions. Human rights and human dignity must be at the center of any health care discussion.
Click to expand...

Reality and decency left her long ago.

She is either a liar or is genuinely disturbed, perhaps both.

Meanwhile Texas passed a law (which Bush signed) not all that long ago allowing doctors to pull the plug on people including children against their parents wishes, it is used at times after the parents can no longer afford continued care.

I am sure she is just as outraged about that.
 
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[quote name='gareman']Not unlike the idea that you can get huge fines and forced into an insurance plan if you get caught not having insurance on your car? I take it you are very much against this.[/QUOTE]

YOU CAN'T COMPARE PEOPLE TO CARS, YOU SICK MONSTER. PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE...

...isn't that the default line whenever someone tries to link health insurance to automobile insurance?

The main difference here is that I am not required by any law to have automotive insurance. Some Democratic proposals would require me to have health insurance.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Where I live you can get a ticket and your car impounded for not having proof of insurance when pulled over.[/QUOTE]

That may be true - but there is still no law that requires an individual in America to have automobile insurance of any kind.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']That may be true - but there is still no law that requires an individual in America to have automobile insurance of any kind.[/QUOTE]


There's no law that requires you not to commit murders either. But there are laws that punish you if you do, just as it is with auto insurance, at least here in California.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You're operating under the presumption that Americans are actually informed as to the contents of the bill as proposed, and also ignoring that a large portion of people are simply opposed to "government-run health care." You know, the same folks who are disproportionately elderly, and therefore disproportionately on medicare?

;)[/QUOTE]

I can't argue with the plain fact that most Americans are ignorant as to what is being proposed, or that "get your stinking government hands off my Medicare!" is even more incredibly ignorant and stupid. I would say, however, that the more people learn about the plans in Congress, the less they like them. I would even assert that if people were more informed, we would see a continuation of that feeling to higher levels of opposition to Democratic plans, given that 80 percent of people are happy with what they have, and any Democratic plan is sure to change that. I do think that the Wyden/Bennett plan, an article about which I linked to a page or two back, would be something that could garner majority support among Americans.
 
[quote name='lawdood']Anytime you want to repudiate any of the so called "talking points" I've regurgitated with facts and links...I'm all eyes.[/QUOTE]

Yes, many facts and links. Like the link to the "subversive" memo (marked as a "key" link) that was authored by a Republican activist whose vast organization is insidiously blanketing America with "astroturf" protests...that claims 23 members and a total of $5,017 in funding?

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/08/liberals_push_bogus_conspiracy.html

Or were your links and proof just that the president and Nancy Pelosi said these things, thus they must be true? :rofl:
 
The government should run health care? Really? Does anyone really believe that's a good idea?

The same government that runs Amtrack, the same Amtrack which has posted a loss for every one of the last 40 years?
The same government runs the postal service - that posted a 2.4 BILLION DOLLAR loss for last quarter, and expects to lose 7 BILLION more in the next year?
This same government runs Medicaid, which by their own admission is crippled with inefficiency and corruption?

So I ask again, who wants to admit they believe it is a good idea to hand the healthcare wheel over to these people?

Finally, by the government's own bloated figures, of the 46 million people without health care, half are eligible for coverage through work or medicaid. Much of the balance of the other 23 million are the laziest, no account, high school drop out bums in the country. By giving them free health care for life and making hard working people like me pay for it, you are giving them another reason to keep their fat asses on their couches for good.
 
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