The "Road to Wrestlemania XXX" Wrestling Thread

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Just throwing it out there: When they had the segment where they showed people how to install the WWE app, the thumbnail showed C.M. Punk.

 
NXT is going to air live on February 27th on the WWE Network with the main event being
a ladder match between Bo Dallas and Adrian Neville for the NXT Championship. Triple H announced it during this week's show and said it's the first ladder match in NXT.
I do wonder if it's a coincidence that they're doing it on a Thursday Night and if they're moving NXT to live shows. 

I actually think live shows would be kind of cool.

 
HeroToTheMasses said:
ROH was a fantastic company that produced a lot of guys that ended up in the WWE. Some to much success (Punk, Bryan) and some not so much (Paul London, Jamie Noble). Gabe Sapolsky was a guy that worked under Paul Heyman during ECW and learned a lot from Heyman and always had a forward looking philosophy when it came to booking talent. He'd always pushed the youngest guys and its through his booking that ROH became the biggest indie company in the USA.

Unfortunately Gabe was fired from ROH in 2008 for a decrease in business and replaced first by Adam Pearce, who was then fired, and replaced by Wrestle Delirious. The in ring-quality of Ring of Honor fell off a cliff after Sapolsky left and the booking was similarly terrible.

I stopped following the company in January 2009 after an event in Edison, NJ where Nigel McGuinness put up the ROH World Title against Tyler Black (Seth Rollins in The Shield). The match ended with a 60 minute time limit draw after only 48 minutes and more run-ins than an Undertaker casket match. I felt robbed by the company and stopped paying attention.

PWG is where it's at when it comes USA indies.
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ROH is still producing a lot of fine wrestling. If you don't want to watch it, that's cool, but you can't really have an informed opinion about a product that you haven't watched in 5 years. That's why I have very little to say about WWE.

 
HeroToTheMasses said:
WWE.Com Piece on ROH

http://www.wwe.com/inside/the-ring-of-honor-influence-26179913

In one way this gives ROH a nice bit of exposure, though I don't expect it to amount to anything. On the other hand, it makes WWE look as if they're so confident they're not worried about anything else touching them, even if they do give another company exposure.
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I don't think anyone, including the people at ROH themselves, have realistically seen themselves as direct competition to WWE, more as an alternative to "sports entertainment". I think some people at WWE realize that ROH has essentially been a farm system for them for several years now, similar to how ECW was back in the 90's, and it's good business for them to shine a spotlight on them occasionally if it could help keep them going.

While reading the ROH article it was interesting to see a picture of Colt Cabana on the site (and actually credited as being Colt Cabana). It was a little annoying, though, that they didn't refer to Danielson, Castagnoli, etc. by their ROH names when referencing their ROH tenures. I also came across this picture while reading the article.

zubaz_widget.gif


Yowza.

 
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KillerRamen said:
NXT is going to air live on February 27th on the WWE Network with the main event being
a ladder match between Bo Dallas and Adrian Neville for the NXT Championship. Triple H announced it during this week's show and said it's the first ladder match in NXT.
I do wonder if it's a coincidence that they're doing it on a Thursday Night and if they're moving NXT to live shows.

I actually think live shows would be kind of cool.
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I thought I read somewhere that Haitch or Stephanie said in an interview that this would be the only live NXT -- but I'd assume that if it's highly successful, they would be doing quite a few of them in the future.

 
slidecage said:
all what happen was the screen went black and stayed black if i remember it. It did not show him falling
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IIRC it happened during a backstage promo/interview. When they cut back to the arena, it was to JR and Lawler who were just in shock of what had just happened.

 
neocisco said:
ROH is still producing a lot of fine wrestling. If you don't want to watch it, that's cool, but you can't really have an informed opinion about a product that you haven't watched in 5 years. That's why I have very little to say about WWE.
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I'm sure their wrestling is fine. The last live event I went to was Best in the World 2011 which saw Richards defeat Edwards for the ROH world title so it's not like I've been completely out of the loop.

There were multiple problems at the time regarding the world title scene that completely killed my interest. You had Nigel drop the belt to Jerry Lynn because Cary Silkin wanted to ride the hype from "The Wrestler" - something Vince McMahon would have done. Then Lynn dropped the belt to Aries who then gave it up to Tyler Black.

The problem with the booking was that prior to Sapolsky being fired, Black had been built up to be the guy that was eventually going to dethrone McGuinness at Final Battle 2008. Instead he was still fighting for the belt for an additional 2 years until he won it at the 8th Anniversary Show in 2011. It's like the situation now with Bryan where we've been waiting since Summerslam for something to finally go his way.

The match style also changed significantly. I remember Richards and KENTA getting scolded for their Supercard of Honor IV match and being told by management that they'd gone too far. Then when Cornette came in and Delirious took over, the entire way the main event scene was orchestrated was completely thrown out the window.

When guys like Punk / Bryan / Joe / Morishima / Nigel had the belt, they were booked as fighting champions. They might be chickenshit heels like Nigel or "Best in the World" like Bryan, but no matter what, nearly every night they'd go out there and put their belt up against any challenger.

Bryan had something like 40 title defenses over a span of 14 months which really helped define those "Best in the World" chants he started getting (and that Jericho and Punk ripped off) and made it look like if you became the ROH World Champion, you were the toughest guy in professional wrestling. Joe, Aries, McGuinness, and Morishima had similar runs.

Now Adam Cole has had 3 title defenses in 6 months. Davey Richards had 10 title defenses over the course of 12 months. That to me has completely made the ROH belt worthless because it makes all the new guys look like garbage compared to the ones who came before them. Unless I'm supposed to forget that Joe beat the shit out of everyone they put in his way. Or Bryan could go toe to toe with everyone from McGuinness to Aries to Joe to KENTA to Marafuji. Lineage used to matter in ROH. It doesn't anymore.

The matches themselves may be good but the crowds are hotter in PWG, the wrestling is better in NJPW, and CHIKARA is on its way back. The wrestling may be fine but it's nowhere near compelling enough for me to tune in. I don't have to be informed about wrestling quality when the company's top draw (the World Champion) is barely competing in the first place.

 
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HydroX said:
IIRC it happened during a backstage promo/interview. When they cut back to the arena, it was to JR and Lawler who were just in shock of what had just happened.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uOD4uPKgCo

 
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So it's been revealed that back in the Fall, TNA was close to being sold to Toby Keith and Jeff Jarrett. But the Carters, who have controlling interest, wanted them to keep Dixie as President of the company with some power and still be on tv. Since they wanted to buy it with no strings attached, Jarrett & Keith backed out and decided to just create a new wrestling promotion.
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Make sense. Why buy a company that forces you to keep somebody that made decisions that caused the company to be in such bad shape as it is now? Better to start from scratch with zero debt.

 
Yggy87 said:
A HHH/ROH Crossover?

Just pedigrees everywhere...
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So I was bored at work and started to listen to podcasts and man why havent I done this earlier. Love the insight from Stone Cold both from an insider perspective as a wrestler and currently as a fan. Also listened to Jericho's one with Chavo and if you're an Eddie fan, it's a must listen. I started choking up when he was telling the final moments when he last saw Eddie and what happened. Only thing that sucks is it's a 2 parter so you'll have to wait til next week to hear the rest of it.

 
TheRock88 said:
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So I was bored at work and started to listen to podcasts and man why havent I done this earlier. Love the insight from Stone Cold both from an insider perspective as a wrestler and currently as a fan. Also listened to Jericho's one with Chavo and if you're an Eddie fan, it's a must listen. I started choking up when he was telling the final moments when he last saw Eddie and what happened. Only thing that sucks is it's a 2 parter so you'll have to wait til next week to hear the rest of it.
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Links?

 
http://podcastone.com/Talk-Is-Jericho

Looks like Part 2 with Chavo is already up, apparently Jericho is now doing 2 shows a week. Forgot to mention that in Part 2 he said he would talk about Benoit too, should be very interesting since Chavo was one of the last people he talked to before the incident.

 
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Colt's new episode with Quack is an interesting listen. Mostly goes into his philosophy with Chikara's approach to wrestling rather than just talking about his career like most episodes.
 
I watched another great KENTA/Marufuji match. If you don't watch it at least watch the spot at the 13:00 mark. These two have put together a series of matches on par with what Angle and Benoit did during their WWE runs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNPfswLOxHU

HeroToTheMasses said:
I'm sure their wrestling is fine. The last live event I went to was Best in the World 2011 which saw Richards defeat Edwards for the ROH world title so it's not like I've been completely out of the loop.

There were multiple problems at the time regarding the world title scene that completely killed my interest. You had Nigel drop the belt to Jerry Lynn because Cary Silkin wanted to ride the hype from "The Wrestler" - something Vince McMahon would have done. Then Lynn dropped the belt to Aries who then gave it up to Tyler Black.

The problem with the booking was that prior to Sapolsky being fired, Black had been built up to be the guy that was eventually going to dethrone McGuinness at Final Battle 2008. Instead he was still fighting for the belt for an additional 2 years until he won it at the 8th Anniversary Show in 2011. It's like the situation now with Bryan where we've been waiting since Summerslam for something to finally go his way.

The match style also changed significantly. I remember Richards and KENTA getting scolded for their Supercard of Honor IV match and being told by management that they'd gone too far. Then when Cornette came in and Delirious took over, the entire way the main event scene was orchestrated was completely thrown out the window.

When guys like Punk / Bryan / Joe / Morishima / Nigel had the belt, they were booked as fighting champions. They might be chickenshit heels like Nigel or "Best in the World" like Bryan, but no matter what, nearly every night they'd go out there and put their belt up against any challenger.

Bryan had something like 40 title defenses over a span of 14 months which really helped define those "Best in the World" chants he started getting (and that Jericho and Punk ripped off) and made it look like if you became the ROH World Champion, you were the toughest guy in professional wrestling. Joe, Aries, McGuinness, and Morishima had similar runs.

Now Adam Cole has had 3 title defenses in 6 months. Davey Richards had 10 title defenses over the course of 12 months. That to me has completely made the ROH belt worthless because it makes all the new guys look like garbage compared to the ones who came before them. Unless I'm supposed to forget that Joe beat the shit out of everyone they put in his way. Or Bryan could go toe to toe with everyone from McGuinness to Aries to Joe to KENTA to Marafuji. Lineage used to matter in ROH. It doesn't anymore.

The matches themselves may be good but the crowds are hotter in PWG, the wrestling is better in NJPW, and CHIKARA is on its way back. The wrestling may be fine but it's nowhere near compelling enough for me to tune in. I don't have to be informed about wrestling quality when the company's top draw (the World Champion) is barely competing in the first place.
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You don't have to be informed to make a decision to watch, absolutely true, but if you're going to critique with credibility you do need to be watching otherwise there is no basis for what is being said.

 
That's like saying I need to buy every single Electronic Arts game in order to know what makes them a crappy company. Or that I need to watch every Rob Schneider film in order to "credibly" maintain that he is mostly terrible. I get that you're probably a ROH fan. That's cool. But my initial statement was very specifically, "PWG is where it's at." and I'll stick to that. 

I've never deconstructed the match quality of the talent. My criticisms revolved around booking, match guidelines, and frequency of title defenses in comparison to the standard set in the past. All of these are quantifiable and if you think I'm wrong, I'd prefer you back it up instead of throwing out some wish-washy line about critiquing with credibility. 

I watched Delirious' booking for nearly a year and decided it was garbage in comparison to Sapolsky, including going to multiple live shows. 14 months is probably enough time to figure out if a guy is good at his job or not. Maybe you need more time to figure that out but I have better things to do. The talent in ROH isn't exclusive to the company. I can see Adam Cole, Kevin Steen, Chris Hero, Roderick Strong, and Kyle O' Reilly perform just as well in PWG as in ROH, but with better booking and management. 

We can play the "Am I wrong" game if you want.

01. The Ring of Honor World Title is not defended as rigorously as when Gabe Sapolosky was writing for Ring of Honor. Am I wrong?
I already know the answer to this but if you want to say I don't have any legitimacy on this point, I'll use this as a source: http://www.rohwrestling.com/wrestlers/champions. You can count up the title defenses yourself. 

02. The match-ups are less fresher than they were when Gabe Sapolsky was writing for Ring of Honor. Am I wrong?

Next Delirious Show: http://www.rohwrestling.com/live/events/2014/feb/8/020814-san-antonio-tx

Main Event: Jay Briscoe vs. Adam Cole

Last Gabe Sapolsky Show: http://prowrestling.wikia.com/wiki/ROH_Ring_of_Homicide_2

Main Event: LAX vs. The Briscoe Brothers

I'm not counting match stars here but if you look at the breadth of talent Sapolsky would use and compare it to what Delirious uses, Sapolsky always tried to incorporate more guys, including bringing in people from Japan like KENTA, Marafuji, Misawa, Kobashi, Nakamura, Suzuki, and Morishima. 

03. Ring of Honor killed its relationships with Dragon Gate and NOAH? Am I wrong?

Yes. The fact that a small indie company could land guys from two different Japanese promotions is a testament to the respect people had for Sapolsky. The fact that it was killed so that management could develop in-house talent like Mike Bennett and Matt Taven is a goddamn sham. 

04. Match quality in Ring of Honor fallen off a cliff. Am I wrong?

From 2004 to 2008 Ring of Honor consistently delivered a match of the year contender. 

04: Joe vs. Punk 2

05: Joe vs. Kobashi

06: Ryo Saito, Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi vs. CIMA, Naruki Doi, Masato Yoshino

07: McGuinness vs. Aries

08: McGuinness vs. Danielson

Not to say there weren't any good matches in Ring of Honor, but I'd love to know what your favorite match of the year from Ring of Honor was in 2013. If I haven't seen it, I'll check it out and post a credible critique.

05. Management killed the official Ring of Honor forums so that fans couldn't complain about changes. Am I wrong? 

It used to be there. Now it's not.


Again. If I want to see these guys wrestle, I can see them wrestle in a company that I enjoy watching and supporting. But ROH is a shell of itself. It's not all match quality that determines whether I want to support a company. Maybe it's like that for you and I'm cool with it. Just tone it down with the slimey republican style debate tactics.

 
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We can agree to disagree on who likes to watch what and why. That's fine. I can even agree with some of the points you made about ROH being a lesser company than they were at one point. I certainly haven't tried to diminish what's going on in other promotions to inflate ROH's status. We don't have to see eye to eye on this subject and that's cool. Everything was OK in this discussion. Well, except this line.

HeroToTheMasses said:
Just tone it down with the slimey republican style debate tactics.
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That in and of itself was just wrong since I didn't use any "slimy tactics" (whether Republican or not, whatever that's supposed to mean).

 
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Okay. That was unwarranted. I accept that and I apologize.

I'm not a fan of saying someone isn't credible or they are without actually attacking or defending the positions involved. By simply throwing out someone is not credible without really saying why rubs me the wrong way. I laid out a number of points that could conclusively be argued back and forth. 

It's like saying, "Hey you could be right... but you could be wrong." and then running off without anything substantive beyond that. It serves more to instill doubt rather than to conclusively argue "Hey you are right..." or "You are wrong."

That all said, I apologize again. I was wrong.

 
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Well so much for the network being "unedited, uncensored". They're going to edit out parts of the Over the Edge ppv that deals with Owen.

http://www.pwmania.com/wwe-network-to-edit-over-the-edge-1999-stephanie-on-chris-benoit-owen-hart-decision#.UvZN7rSGfy8

CBS Pittsburgh has published an article on WWE deciding to air the controversial Over The Edge 1999 pay-per-view on the WWE Network.

WWE issued the following statement on Friday:

“WWE Network will be airing the 1999 Over The Edge pay-per-view. However, portions of the event will be edited out of respect for Owen Hart.”

Before the Royal Rumble last month, CBS spoke with Stephanie McMahon about Over The Edge 1999 and she said they had not made a decision at that time. Stephanie did confirm that Chris Benoit matches will be on the Network.

In the video below, Stephanie said:

“They are incredible challenging decisions to make. At the end of the day, we try to do what’s right for our fans and we try to give them exactly what they want to see.”
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I don't mind them cutting out those parts. Watching the video that Scorch posted is the first time I've ever actually seen those moments from the PPV, and it's not something I'd ever really want to watch again. Who wants to relive the death of someone over and over?

I'd be more upset if they edited out any actual wrestling.

 
TheRock88 said:
Well so much for the network being "unedited, uncensored". They're going to edit out parts of the Over the Edge ppv that deals with Owen.

http://www.pwmania.com/wwe-network-to-edit-over-the-edge-1999-stephanie-on-chris-benoit-owen-hart-decision#.UvZN7rSGfy8
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I think this is....different. I wasn't at the event but was watching the PPV live at the time and it was....uncomfortable. to say the least.

I realize they pitched the network as being "unedited and uncensored" but I think I can live with this one edit.

 
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This week a WWE employee, who obviously asked to remain anonymous, asked them to publish the following letter. 

“Honestly, Punk is being a little bitch. I liked him so much before his run leading to and after that Money in the Bank in Chicago. He’s a guy where you have to be really in his circle for him to I guess open up, which I understand, but being put in a feud with Kane and then with HHH at Mania is not a bad thing. Now I understand he feels this is his last Mania and he wants to main event and really, with the right storyline, that match could main event, but literally after the Tribute to the Troops incident he’s just been difficult. There are so many there that want his spot, that want to say, ‘I need a weekend off to go to UFC.’ I really and fully believe he’s a little jealous of the crowd reactions to Bryan and it’s getting to him—He’s just been such a dick lately. That interview with Ariel, he acted like he was the victim at the Troops taping when Michelle was just joking. Little bitch AJ took it to the wrong level. Do you really think AJ would have a ‘pipe bomb’ interview time or longest Diva champ BS if she wasn’t dating Punk? Punk really doesn’t want to be the face of the company. That’s BS. I hate hearing that shit. He says he does but this isn’t ROH or OVW. He would bitch so much if he had to do Michael & Kelly at 9 a.m., then fly to a different state (for Raw), do a Make-A-Wish at 1 p.m. and then RAW, then do SmackDown, then do something Wednesday to fly home Thursday to be on the road Friday or Saturday. No way he could handle that for four months. He may come back as soon as Monday or he may never come back, but if never comes back he better remember how many fans he’s fucking over right now, the same way he believes the WWE is fucking him over. And I’m not defending Vince or HHH. Especially HHH, because people are seeing that HHH taking over isn’t as cool as they thought it would be. Outlaws, Nash, X-Pac, Flair, HBK, Batista—yeah must be nice to be HHH friends.”
(Source: F4Wonline.com)

The Kilq is never what's best for business.

 
bhk said:
I think this is....different. I wasn't at the event but was watching the PPV live at the time and it was....uncomfortable. to say the least.

I realize they pitched the network as being "unedited and uncensored" but I think I can live with this one edit.
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Yeah, it's morally right to edit that part out. Plus it saves them from Owen Hart's wife trying to sue them again over that part being included.

As for that letter mentioning Triple H bringing his Kliq friends back. Wtf has X-pac done for WWE in recent years besides the Raw 1,000 show? Really don't see that as bringing him back/doing a favor for just one cameo.

 
tangytangerine said:
Yeah, it's morally right to edit that part out. Plus it saves them from Owen Hart's wife trying to sue them again over that part being included.

As for that letter mentioning Triple H bringing his Kliq friends back. Wtf has X-pac done for WWE in recent years besides the Raw 1,000 show? Really don't see that as bringing him back/doing a favor for just one cameo.
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Well, he signed a Legends contract last year, which I assume would not have happened without Triple H. The personal life section of his Wikipedia entry is actually really sad. Makes me feel bad for the guy.

 
mitch079 said:
This week a WWE employee, who obviously asked to remain anonymous, asked them to publish the following letter.

“Honestly, Punk is being a little bitch. I liked him so much before his run leading to and after that Money in the Bank in Chicago. He’s a guy where you have to be really in his circle for him to I guess open up, which I understand, but being put in a feud with Kane and then with HHH at Mania is not a bad thing. Now I understand he feels this is his last Mania and he wants to main event and really, with the right storyline, that match could main event, but literally after the Tribute to the Troops incident he’s just been difficult. There are so many there that want his spot, that want to say, ‘I need a weekend off to go to UFC.’ I really and fully believe he’s a little jealous of the crowd reactions to Bryan and it’s getting to him—He’s just been such a dick lately. That interview with Ariel, he acted like he was the victim at the Troops taping when Michelle was just joking. Little bitch AJ took it to the wrong level. Do you really think AJ would have a ‘pipe bomb’ interview time or longest Diva champ BS if she wasn’t dating Punk? Punk really doesn’t want to be the face of the company. That’s BS. I hate hearing that shit. He says he does but this isn’t ROH or OVW. He would bitch so much if he had to do Michael & Kelly at 9 a.m., then fly to a different state (for Raw), do a Make-A-Wish at 1 p.m. and then RAW, then do SmackDown, then do something Wednesday to fly home Thursday to be on the road Friday or Saturday. No way he could handle that for four months. He may come back as soon as Monday or he may never come back, but if never comes back he better remember how many fans he’s fucking over right now, the same way he believes the WWE is fucking him over. And I’m not defending Vince or HHH. Especially HHH, because people are seeing that HHH taking over isn’t as cool as they thought it would be. Outlaws, Nash, X-Pac, Flair, HBK, Batista—yeah must be nice to be HHH friends.”(Source: F4Wonline.com)

The Kilq is never what's best for business.
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All of that is 300% work/fan fiction, seeing as how CM Punk didn't actually quit.
 
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I do agree that the New Age Outlaws getting the tag titles is fucking atrocious. Literally any other team that has existed recently or currently exists would've been a better option (seriously, I'd rather have Santino & Kahli be champs). They could've given the Usos a solid run or finally given 3MB a long deserved push (Slater is second only to Ziggler in selling it like his opponent murdered him in the ring and Macintyre was great they just aren't doing anything with him, Mahal barely wrestles as is just make him their manager). You could still setup Goldust vs. Cody very easily for WM while giving anybody besides this ancient act that got old before they left over a decade ago and was never good in the ring.

 
So, I haven't been around awhile. Antiques Roadshow = Brak? 

The flippant one-liner in the form of a non-sequitur seems familiar to me that way.

 
I have a feeling that everyone looking for as-is footage is going to be sorely disappointed. Even the Coliseum/Turner home releases were edited, let alone under the control of modern day WWE.

 
davo1224 said:
I have a feeling that everyone looking for as-is footage is going to be sorely disappointed. Even the Coliseum/Turner home releases were edited, let alone under the control of modern day WWE.
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I can hardly wait to hear The Sandman enter to Steve Blackman's Donkey Konga music.

And then we'll get a mid-match cameo from The Gangstas but instead of Natural Born Killaz we'll get D'Lo's "You're Looking at the Real Deal Now" music. ...Which is sorta fitting considering the origin of The Gangstas.

 
The Great Muta said:
I can hardly wait to hear The Sandman enter to Steve Blackman's Donkey Konga music.

And then we'll get a mid-match cameo from The Gangstas but instead of Natural Born Killaz we'll get D'Lo's "You're Looking at the Real Deal Now" music. ...Which is sorta fitting considering the origin of The Gangstas.
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:lol:

 
Someone asked me today who my least favorite wrestler in the world is. 

"New Jack", I replied.

After seeing the Mass Transit match in it's entirety for the first time just now, I stand by my choice.

 
New Jack is the worst. Just utter fucking garbage. Is he still attacking people with cheese graters somewhere?

 
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Dr. Venkman said:
According to wikipedia he retired. What made his matches worse was the nonstop playing of his entrance theme during the matches themselves. Ugh.
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Natural Born Killaz was/is still legit as fuck. Your opinion is invalid.

However, New Jack does suck a whole bag and a half of dicks. Truly a piece of shit, he is.

 
Yeah, I recall disliking New Jack, at the time, and referring to him and The Sandman as "garbage wrestlers."

However, I did love their entrances and shenanigans. I was a conflicted teenager.

Dr. Venkman said:
On a side note, does anyone have a spare $55,000?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWF-WWE-Hasbro-Greg-The-Hammer-Valentine-R-B-Prototype-Wrestling-LJN-WCW-ECW-/370992511965?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item5660e07bdd
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Curious as to what that one guy offered.

I wonder if the seller realizes that something is only as valuable as one is willing to pay.

 
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