2009 MLB Discussion Thread

Cubs keep the streak alive! 6 losses in a row and counting. Another quality start with absolutely no run support. Our starters have to pitch a shutout right now to have any chance of winning. Now I know we have some injuries but this is truly pathetic for one of the highest payrolls in the big leagues. :wall::wall::wall::wall:
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']You are way to quickly dismissing the Rays. Kazmir, Garza, and Shields are a nice 1-2-3. Carlos Pena is a beast. Evan Longoria is awesome and may soon be the best 3rd baseman in baseball. Carl Crawford is a fantastic all-around player. This isn't counting the really young players they have that aren't playing well (BJ Upton, David Price). They also have a loaded farm system to find missing pieces for the stretch run.[/QUOTE]

I'm not dismissing the Rays, but as expected, their pitching has not lived up to the hype of last season. The lineup is stacked, no doubt. But the pitching will dictate where they finish. Plus, they're not going to surprise anybody this year.

Also, I can't believe the Yanks pulled off another comeback. If they keep this up, they might actually be able to convince ghosts to move across the street. I also find it amusing that Jose Veras has recorded 2 of his wins this season by pitching only the final out in the 9th. That's maximum effort right there, haha.
 
Amazing game against Oakland tonight. D-backs were down 1-5 against the A's, then in the top of the eighth we get 4 runs to tie the game up, followed by 3 runs in the 11th inning to get the win. Qualls almost gave up the lead though, A's were able to get it to 8-7 before an amazing double play to end the game.

Giambi also gets his 400th HR off Dan Haren.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']We played like crap but..... a win is a win. Ill take it anyway possible. especially with this patchwork team we have up. WE are SOOOO lucky to take two from the Sox. Another RBI from Sheff in the first and a 2 run shot from Santos in the 9th with 2 out...was huge. Sure they make a lot of mistakes but at least they never gave up until the end. Again , last years mets would have given up in the 8th and just packed up and get ready to go home. I am proud we took 2 at Fenway where everyone...even me counted them out. If we sweep tomorrow...this hopefully could carry us for our homestand.[/QUOTE]

I understand a win is a win but they cannot keep winning with the team they are putting out there. I am shocked they have taken the first 2 of this series. There defense redeemed themselves but there is no way they can win and play defense consistently with who they have on the field.
 
Rays blew a 10-0 lead against the Indians. Rays had a 10-2 lead in the bottom of the 8th which turned into a 10-4 game going into the 9th. The Indians scored 7 runs in the bottom of the 9th to win. 6 of those runs came with 2 outs.
 
Went to the Cards Royals game on Sunday and absolutely roasted in the stands. I forgot how humid it gets in good ole St. Louie.

I've come to the realization that Tony LaRussa has lost it. For instance, he had Rasmus put down a sac bunt with one out and Schumaker on first. This left Schumaker on second with two outs and Pujols at the plate. What happened? Pujols got the intentional pass and Duncan flied out to end the inning. Why would you take the bat out of the hands of the only feared hitter in the lineup and let that stiff Duncan take his hacks?

The other instance actually turned out all right but LaRussa left Joel Pinero in to hit in the sixth with two outs and runners on first and second. Why let the pitcher hit when you're down a run and getting to the late innings? Pinero pitched six great innings but wasn't outstanding. Even though he got the miraculous single to tie the game, he went out in the seventh and coughed up a run to lose it.

What do you guys think about LaRussa?
 
[quote name='DomLando']I understand a win is a win but they cannot keep winning with the team they are putting out there. I am shocked they have taken the first 2 of this series. There defense redeemed themselves but there is no way they can win and play defense consistently with who they have on the field.[/QUOTE]

yep, i agree with that. Omar is going to have to make a move before the deadline to get us back some depth. They say Reyes may be put on the disabled list on Friday. If that happens than we are surely in trouble with Cora hitting the DL already and now having Ramon Martinez full time SS is not making me happy. Also the next SS we have is Reuben Tejada is with Doubla A Binghamton and he is no where ready for the Majors yet. We have an easy series with the Nats but we got the Yanks,Phils,Tampa, and St.Louis all coming up and those teams are playing really well..and they are healthy. lets cross our fingers we can at least make it to july with no more injuries.
 
I caught the "highlights" of the Zambrano meltdown. I loved the part where he ejected the ump:applause: I wonder how long his suspension will be?
 
[quote name='depascal22']Z will be suspended for four games and not really miss any....[/QUOTE]

No chance, dude went bananas on the ump. A starting pitcher is almost always going to get 5 games. Any less and the suspension is pointless. 4 games goes like this, pitcher does something stupid -> gets suspended -> appeals to delay the start of said suspension -> makes next start -> drops appeal -> serves 4 games -> available for next turn in the rotation.
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']No chance, dude went bananas on the ump. A starting pitcher is almost always going to get 5 games. Any less and the suspension is pointless. 4 games goes like this, pitcher does something stupid -> gets suspended -> appeals to delay the start of said suspension -> makes next start -> drops appeal -> serves 4 games -> available for next turn in the rotation.[/QUOTE]

And it's already happened like that dozens of times. Yes, he went bananas but not anymore than a dozen other pitchers over the last couple years.
 
[quote name='depascal22']What do you guys think about LaRussa?[/QUOTE]

The 2h32m game time is a minor miracle for a LaRussa managed team, consider your roasting ass lucky ;). He likes to double switch, sac bunt, hit and run, play matchups, and use 5 relievers in a game. He micro-manages his clubs in way only matched by Mike Scoscia. I don't agree with the timing of some his tactics and how often he employs them, but it is hard to argue with his results. His Oakland A's teams should have won more than 1 World Series, but that can be forgiven after a very ordinary 2006 Cardinals team upset several more talented clubs.
 
[quote name='depascal22']And it's already happened like that dozens of times. Yes, he went bananas but not anymore than a dozen other pitchers over the last couple years.[/QUOTE]

Maybe.... 4 games and restitution for destroying a defenseless Gatorade dispenser.
 
[quote name='paddlefoot']The 2h32m game time is a minor miracle for a LaRussa managed team, consider your roasting ass lucky ;). He likes to double switch, sac bunt, hit and run, play matchups, and use 5 relievers in a game. He micro-manages his clubs in way only matched by Mike Scoscia. I don't agree with the timing of some his tactics and how often he employs them, but it is hard to argue with his results. His Oakland A's teams should have won more than 1 World Series, but that can be forgiven after a very ordinary 2006 Cardinals team upset several more talented clubs.[/QUOTE]

His 00 and 04 Cards team should've won it all. He should've definately won in 88.

I know all about the LaRussa style but you think he'd be able to modify it to accomodate the immense talent of Pujols. It isn't like there's another hitter in the lineup to punish a team for walking him like he had with Rolen or Edmonds.
 
[quote name='depascal22']His 00 and 04 Cards team should've won it all. He should've definately won in 88.

I know all about the LaRussa style but you think he'd be able to modify it to accomodate the immense talent of Pujols. It isn't like there's another hitter in the lineup to punish a team for walking him like he had with Rolen or Edmonds.[/QUOTE]
They weren't going to beat the Sox in 04, they were completely overmatched. The starting pitching was not there.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']They weren't going to beat the Sox in 04, they were completely overmatched. The starting pitching was not there.[/QUOTE]

To furthur dafoomie's post, I remember hearing after game 4 that the Red Sox didn't have a swing and miss against a Cardinal's starter in the series.
 
2004 Cards Starting Pitchers

Matt Morris
Chris Carpenter
Jason Marquis
Woody Williams
Jeff Suppan

Sounds like a decent pitching staff to me.
 
[quote name='depascal22']2004 Cards Starting Pitchers

Matt Morris
Chris Carpenter
Jason Marquis
Woody Williams
Jeff Suppan

Sounds like a decent pitching staff to me.[/QUOTE]
A decent NL starting pitching staff that got lit up the first time it faced a real lineup, anybody in the AL would've torched them. Meanwhile, in the final 3 games of the series no Red Sox starting pitcher (Pedro, Schilling, D-Lowe) gave up an earned run. They got to Wakefield in game 1 but Woody Williams was awful that game too.

Carpenter, Suppan and Williams were mediocre pitchers during their time in the AL. The Sox left Suppan off their playoff roster in 2003.
 
Quit acting like the Cards were so bad. The adrenaline of being the first team to come back from 0-3 and doing it against the Yankees could've taken any team to a World Championship.

Chris Carpenter was mediocre during his AL stint because he played for a mediocre Jays team that played in the best division in baseball but I guess that's all his fault.

Most pitchers in the AL that don't play with contenders are horrible. Other than Johan Santana can you name a single AL pitcher in the last two decades that has had more than one or two good years? You can't name anyone that played for the Yankees, Red Sox, or Angels.

EDIT -- I found Roy Halliday and that's it.
 
Don't see the need to calm down since I'm not really riled up in the first place. Maybe I should make another challenge. Name another team in the NL that had better starting pitching in 2004.

Yes they got blown up in the World Series but they had a bad four game stretch. It happens all the time. How else do you explain the huge number of Wild Card teams that have played and won the World Series?

EDIT -- @paddlefoot Cardinals starters had 12 Ks in the series which sounds crappy but I'm pretty sure there was at least one swing and a miss before game 4.
 
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[quote name='depascal22']Quit acting like the Cards were so bad. The adrenaline of being the first team to come back from 0-3 and doing it against the Yankees could've taken any team to a World Championship.

Chris Carpenter was mediocre during his AL stint because he played for a mediocre Jays team that played in the best division in baseball but I guess that's all his fault.

Most pitchers in the AL that don't play with contenders are horrible. Other than Johan Santana can you name a single AL pitcher in the last two decades that has had more than one or two good years? You can't name anyone that played for the Yankees, Red Sox, or Angels.

EDIT -- I found Roy Halliday and that's it.[/QUOTE]

Randy Johnson(with Seattle)
Bartolo Colon
Roger Clemens(with Toronto)
Barry Zito
Tim Hudson
Mark Mulder
Mike Mussina(with Baltimore)
 
I don't believe any team in the NL was good enough to beat any of the top 3 teams from the AL that year, the disparity was enormous. The best two teams in baseball played in the ALCS in 04.

There are numerous examples of pitchers putting up monster numbers in the NL after being OK in the AL, and there are plenty of NL pitchers who had a difficult time adjusting to the AL. NL lineups are much weaker, the bottom 1/3rd are automatic outs and nobody has more than one dominant hitter.

Look at the Cards' 04 lineup:

Edgar Renteria
Larry Walker (post-Rockies, end of the line)
Albert Pujols
Scott Rolen
Jim Edmonds
Reggie Sanders (mediocre)
Tony Womack (automatic out)
Mike Matheny (automatic out)
So Taguchi/Marlon Anderson (automatic out)

Now look at the Sox:

Damon
Cabrera
Manny
Ortiz
Varitek
Millar
Nixon
Mueller
Bellhorn


Bellhorn is comparable to Sanders. The 03 batting champion is hitting 8th with 20-25 HR guys hitting 5/6/7.


The Sox were a far superior team, the Cardinals were really only in game 1. Wasn't close after that.
 
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I don't even think that can even be countered. It is well, well documented that the transition from AL to NL has been very, very kind to a number of pitchers. CC Sabathia is a very damn good pitcher. I think he's a tick behind the true, shutdown aces, like Santana and Halladay. He turned into Sandy Koufax, though, when he went to the NL last year.
 
[quote name='depascal22']2004 Cards Starting Pitchers

Matt Morris
Chris Carpenter
Jason Marquis
Woody Williams
Jeff Suppan

Sounds like a decent pitching staff to me.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='depascal22']Quit acting like the Cards were so bad. The adrenaline of being the first team to come back from 0-3 and doing it against the Yankees could've taken any team to a World Championship.

Chris Carpenter was mediocre during his AL stint because he played for a mediocre Jays team that played in the best division in baseball but I guess that's all his fault.

Most pitchers in the AL that don't play with contenders are horrible. Other than Johan Santana can you name a single AL pitcher in the last two decades that has had more than one or two good years? You can't name anyone that played for the Yankees, Red Sox, or Angels.

EDIT -- I found Roy Halliday and that's it.[/QUOTE]

You mentioned Chris Carpenter in both your posts for good reason, he was by far their best pitcher. He also didn't throw a pitch during the 2004 playoffs.

I know you feel the rest of the staff is decent, here is how they fared.

IP ER ERA H BB SO WHIP
16.1 18 9.92 26 15 12 2.51

Having trouble with the formatting, but my point is they had a 9.92 ERA and allowed 41 baserunners in their 16.1 innings
 
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[quote name='pitfallharry219']Randy Johnson(with Seattle)
Bartolo Colon
Roger Clemens(with Toronto)
Barry Zito
Tim Hudson
Mark Mulder
Mike Mussina(with Baltimore)[/QUOTE]


I can add to that list
Jack McDowell
Orel Hershiser
Kevin Brown
Chuck Finely
Jack Morris
Bert Blyleven
Jimmy Key(Toronto)
David Wells(Toronto)
David Cone(Toronto)
Esteban Loaiza

Those are the ones i researched and found that they were pretty good if not great in the AL in the past 2 decades. they are more who are from non-contenders.
 
I went to the Indians game on Wednesday, arrived two hours early, sat out a two hour rain delay, then got to see them win. It was entertaining to see, but I'm not sure if they're turning things around or if they just play well against the Rays (sweeping them over four games).

They'd have to have a huge comeback to be relevant near the end of the season but I suppose anything's possible if the bullpen straightens out.
 
Very nice, guys. Some of those guys only had one or two good years in the AL but very nice. Big ups for putting Jack Morris on that list. Probably one of my faves from a very good Twins team in 91. I'd have to disqualify Blyleven since his last good year was 89 and his last year in the majors was 92.

Some guys have made a nice jump to the AL and thrived but they are few and far between. Pedro Martinez is probably the best example.

The biggest head scratcher is Barry Zito though. He dominated in Oakland and then becomes a nobody in San Fran. I guess the money can cause a player to stop trying.

Also, I know the Cards pitchers got rocked in the World Series but I just don't think it's fair to judge an entire season on just the World Series. I know it's what leaves the biggest impression but the Cards starters had a great regular season.

And dafoomie, I know the starting lineup was mediocre. There's no getting around that but I'll take any lineup that had Renteria, Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds. Not as fearsome as Papi and Manny in their primes but I'll still take my chances.
 
[quote name='depascal22']And dafoomie, I know the starting lineup was mediocre. There's no getting around that but I'll take any lineup that had Renteria, Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds. Not as fearsome as Papi and Manny in their primes but I'll still take my chances.[/QUOTE]
1-5, that was as solid a lineup as there was in baseball. But they were atrocious after that, which is typical for NL teams. In the AL, you have competent hitters in the bottom of the lineup, there is no break for the pitcher. You don't get three easy innings built in.

The difference in that series was Morris, Marquis, Suppan, and Williams vs Pedro, Schilling, Lowe, and Wakefield. Its not even close.
 
Very true. The Sox had one of the best rotations since the Orioles trotted out Palmer, McNally, and Cuellar in the late 60s/early 70s.

The Cards got swept but the weird thing is that they didn't really get blown out of a single game. The Sox won 11-9, 6-2, 4-1, and 3-0. A couple breaks here and there and maybe the Series goes the distance. That being said, I'm glad the Sox got their win and the Cards picked one up in 06.

To get back to the 09 season, did anyone watch the Dodgers-Cubs game last night on MLB TV? Troncoso puts runners on first and second with no out in the eighth and the ninth. The Cubbies even loaded the bases with one out in the ninth and he strikes out the last two batters.
 
[quote name='depascal22']

To get back to the 09 season, did anyone watch the Dodgers-Cubs game last night on MLB TV? Troncoso puts runners on first and second with no out in the eighth and the ninth. The Cubbies even loaded the bases with one out in the ninth and he strikes out the last two batters.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I watched it unfortunately. Once again the Cubs could not get that one hit they needed with runners in scoring position. Another 2-1 loss. That was a great pitching performance though by Troncoso to pull his balls out of the fire twice. I feel bad for Randy Wells. He has a 1.80 ERA but an 0-2 record to show for it because the Cubs can't score any runs for him.
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu']Yankees! First place! Woot!

That is all :)[/QUOTE]

You know it! First time in over two years. fucking sick.

Anyway, the Mets solved their catcher situation by shipping out Castro.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']You know it! First time in over two years. fucking sick.

Anyway, the Mets solved their catcher situation by shipping out Castro.[/QUOTE]

yeah Santos pretty much solidified it with tonights game. He has been great for us ever since he came up. If he can carry like this through this year and the next..its safe to say Schnieder will be gone also. Funny thing is we got Lance Broadway in that deal. Omar said he wanted him as a SP. he can have all the time he wants with buffalo.

Good thing both NY teams are doing well. I cant wait for the subway series. i wanted both teams to come in hot so we get some great baseball.
 
I think the Dodgers will have something to say about a Subway Series. Don't get me wrong. I like the Mets but I have a bad feeling they'll get left standing again when it comes to playoff spots at the end of the year.

Bummer about Clint Hurdle. It really shows that there is zero room for error for any manager not named LaRussa, Francona, Cox, Torre, or Manuel. I'd put Piniella on the list but I think he's on the hot seat if the Cubs don't get to the playoffs this year. I think a trip to the Series is the only thing that provides him any sort of job security.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I think the Dodgers will have something to say about a Subway Series. Don't get me wrong. I like the Mets but I have a bad feeling they'll get left standing again when it comes to playoff spots at the end of the year.

Bummer about Clint Hurdle. It really shows that there is zero room for error for any manager not named LaRussa, Francona, Cox, Torre, or Manuel. I'd put Piniella on the list but I think he's on the hot seat if the Cubs don't get to the playoffs this year. I think a trip to the Series is the only thing that provides him any sort of job security.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Lou will be on the hot seat this year if the Cubs don't make the playoffs. They've had several injuries to start the year off. Having A-Ram out of the lineup for a couple months has really handcuffed them. They never should have signed Milton Bradley and they should have kept DeRosa.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I think the Dodgers will have something to say about a Subway Series. Don't get me wrong. I like the Mets but I have a bad feeling they'll get left standing again when it comes to playoff spots at the end of the year.[/QUOTE]

The Dodgers are going to try to stop the subway series that is scheduled for June 12-14? Why? Are they opposed to interleague play?

I don't think he was talking about the World Series. It would be pretty stupid to use the fact that the teams are playing well now as a sign that they'll be "coming in hot" for a World Series in October.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Very true. The Sox had one of the best rotations since the Orioles trotted out Palmer, McNally, and Cuellar in the late 60s/early 70s.

[/QUOTE]

The Yankees of the late 90's had far better pitching rotations than the Red Sox of 04/07. Pedro was better than anybody on the Yankees but the Yankees 1-5 were far much better.

96

Pettitte
Key
Cone

98
Pettitte
Cone
Wells
El Duque

99
Pettitte
Cone
Clemens
El Duque

2000
Pettitte
Cone
Clemens
El Duque

2001 AL Champs
Pettitte
Clemens
Mussina
El Duque

2003 AL Champs
Pettitte
Clemens
Mussina
Wells
 
[quote name='depascal22']I think the Dodgers will have something to say about a Subway Series. Don't get me wrong. I like the Mets but I have a bad feeling they'll get left standing again when it comes to playoff spots at the end of the year.

Bummer about Clint Hurdle. It really shows that there is zero room for error for any manager not named LaRussa, Francona, Cox, Torre, or Manuel. I'd put Piniella on the list but I think he's on the hot seat if the Cubs don't get to the playoffs this year. I think a trip to the Series is the only thing that provides him any sort of job security.[/QUOTE]


Manuel? How the hell do you put him on that list? All of the others have won World Series, 3 of the 4 have won multiple. What has Manuel done? And he doesn't have any margin for error? He is fired if the Mets do not make the playoffs.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']yeah Santos pretty much solidified it with tonights game. He has been great for us ever since he came up. If he can carry like this through this year and the next..its safe to say Schnieder will be gone also. Funny thing is we got Lance Broadway in that deal. Omar said he wanted him as a SP. he can have all the time he wants with buffalo.

Good thing both NY teams are doing well. I cant wait for the subway series. i wanted both teams to come in hot so we get some great baseball.[/QUOTE]

The Mets are playing horrible teams right now so I would not say that means we will see great baseball against the yankees.

I am really happy they finally got rid of Castro, he is bound to get hurt this season anyway.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Very nice, guys. Some of those guys only had one or two good years in the AL but very nice. Big ups for putting Jack Morris on that list. Probably one of my faves from a very good Twins team in 91. I'd have to disqualify Blyleven since his last good year was 89 and his last year in the majors was 92.

Some guys have made a nice jump to the AL and thrived but they are few and far between. Pedro Martinez is probably the best example.

The biggest head scratcher is Barry Zito though. He dominated in Oakland and then becomes a nobody in San Fran. I guess the money can cause a player to stop trying.

Also, I know the Cards pitchers got rocked in the World Series but I just don't think it's fair to judge an entire season on just the World Series. I know it's what leaves the biggest impression but the Cards starters had a great regular season.

And dafoomie, I know the starting lineup was mediocre. There's no getting around that but I'll take any lineup that had Renteria, Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds. Not as fearsome as Papi and Manny in their primes but I'll still take my chances.[/QUOTE]

Re Zito: The writing was on the wall. I remember when he was a free-agent and I made a comment on one of the MLB threads on CAG about he wasn't going to be worth half of the contract Boras got him, and that was before the $125MM San Fran gave him. I got criticized, but stood by my statement.


SO/9 SO/BB

2002 7.1 2.33 (Cy Young)
2003 5.7 1.66
2004 6.9 2.01
2005 6.7 1.92
2006 6.1 1.53

Also, the Colliseum is a pitchers park and has a huge amount of foul territory.
 
[quote name='DomLando']The Mets are playing horrible teams right now so I would not say that means we will see great baseball against the yankees.

I am really happy they finally got rid of Castro, he is bound to get hurt this season anyway.[/QUOTE]


Remember when I said that Lowe would be a better choice than Perez? My rationale was a simple risk vs. reward. Perez could be an ace, but could also be a dud. You can pencil Lowe in for 200+ Innings and a sub-4.00 ERA. Dude would have been perfect behind Santana.

I hope the Mets don't do what the Red Sox did, waste the prime years of the most dominant pitcher in the game. Pedro was still good in 2004, but was not close to his 99-01 self.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']Manuel? How the hell do you put him on that list? All of the others have won World Series, 3 of the 4 have won multiple. What has Manuel done? And he doesn't have any margin for error? He is fired if the Mets do not make the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

Did you completely forget the Phillies won the last World Series and that Charlie Manuel was their manager. C'mon dude.

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/coach_staff_bio.jsp?c_id=phi&coachorstaffid=1030104143220
 
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