$250 PSP price to stay for a long time to come
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[quote name='jkam']But we all agree the PSP is somewhere between the PS1 and PS2 in capabilites. The DS is somwhere in the realm of the N64. Weren't the N64 and PS1 similar in specs?[/QUOTE]
If we were to put the PSP within a range, it would be between the Dreamcast and the PS2. It is pretty close to the PS2, from what I can tell, in its ability to push polygons.
The DS is pretty much on par with the N64.
The PS1 could do something like 300K polys/sec, the N64 could do 500K polys/sec, the DC was about 3 mil polys/sec, and the PS2 was around 60-70 mil polys/sec. I'm not sure what the PSP can do, but I am fairly certain that it is just below the PS2 benchmarks, whereas the DS is just above the N64.
If we were to put the PSP within a range, it would be between the Dreamcast and the PS2. It is pretty close to the PS2, from what I can tell, in its ability to push polygons.
The DS is pretty much on par with the N64.
The PS1 could do something like 300K polys/sec, the N64 could do 500K polys/sec, the DC was about 3 mil polys/sec, and the PS2 was around 60-70 mil polys/sec. I'm not sure what the PSP can do, but I am fairly certain that it is just below the PS2 benchmarks, whereas the DS is just above the N64.
I'm not saying that the PSP is self-destructing quite yet, but take a look at its e3 showing. And at the complete lack of coverage lately. Few print ads, nothing on television. Meanwhile, its competition (the DS, not the iPod) has been seeing an increase of announced games and advertising.
Sony needs to up the PSP hype (never thought I'd be saying that), or they're going to fall behind.
Sony needs to up the PSP hype (never thought I'd be saying that), or they're going to fall behind.
[quote name='epobirs']You keep expecting Sony to play by a rulebook that doesn't exist. (And no, I don't agree the PSP is 'somewhere between PS1 and PS2.' That would be a misapprehension based on early games only using two-thirds of the system throughput that is current constrained in the firmware. Even with that constraint the difference is quite major. A generational level.)
You keep expecting past products to serve as a guide but none of them are really indicators of anything but their own failures. Of them only the Nomad fits the brute force scenario. It was just a Genesis crammed in a box with a screen and batteries with no serious engineering effort to make it effective. Sega had no interest in doing so as the product only existed at TRU's request. It was never going to be true platform unto itself. As badly done as the Game Gear was, they at least made a go at reducing power usage and outfitting it with good accessories along with substantial software beyond what they could adapt from the Master System. (Some Game Gear titles had Master System releases in Europe where Nintendo's strength was less but the MS was completely unsupported in the US by then.)
The N-gage is just a joke, start to finish. It has a tiny group of adherents but most people looked at it and wondered what the attraction is supposed to be. (I remember being at their E3 launch event and realizing quickly they really had no idea what they were doing. Nothing since then has been a surprise.) Achieving multiplayer through a cell phone connection was a huge mistake when so much other advertising is devoted to tales of woe associated with cell phone costs. Nokia couldn't decide whether this would be a game system with wireless connectivity first or a cell phone first, so it ended up being lousy at both and really turned off customers from both directions.
By and large the Game Boy didn't beat any competitors so much as minded its own business while the rest self-destructed. You can find plenty of old ads where wouldbe competitors stressed their advantages but few where Nintendo took that approach. They stuck to their value formula and just kept moving along. Which was fine for the days when the market was narrower. Today there can be other portable game systems that take the same approach at a different level with neither really in direct competition.
Storage capacity matters quite a lot. PSP games are more expensive due to having near-console level facilites means a similar level of cost but the media is much, much less expensive than the DS's ROM. When you bring in the issue of capacity it only becomes worse. Just dropping in a bit of FMV is a huge decision for a DS game's publisher, since it can easily double the amount of ROM needed for just a small amount of video. On the PSP you're getting the full capacity of the inexpensive UMD regardless of how big your game is. You can fill it up however you like. Game demos, movie trailers, music videos, game documentaries, or whatever else they can think of, even just empty space. There is no penalty for any of it. Developers and publishers are free of the media capacity issue.
The advantage will only increase as down the road the most popular PSP games receive the GH treatment, including a much lower price. At the same time it is unlikely Nintendo can match this. Recall how they acted like they were doing everyone a big favor when elderly N64 games were treated as Player's choice bargains at $40? The problem for them is that they can only do price reductions as their costs go down for the production of each cart. On PSP UMDs, the cost per unit is very low from the very beginning and the price driven primarily by development costs. A big PSP hit can pay off those cost very quickly and evey unit there after either sold at a very high profit or reduced in price to increase the reach of the game but still make a good profit. On the DS it doesn't matter how fast a game sells, the cost of that ROM isn't changing any time soon.
As for load times, if you want to cast the PSP as PS1 to the DS' N64, let us recall there were load times aplenty on the PS1, yet it carried the generation and beyond. Because the stuff being loaded was worth waiting for. But we aren't talking about PS1. This machine has an even greater payoff since it has 8 times the RAM of the PS1. This is another part of the PSP's expense but that 32 MB of RAM is a huge factor in what game developers can achieve with the platform and a pure example of 'you get what you pay for.' On the PS1 there was a bit of a penalty for having approximately the same RAM space as the N64 but having to load everything off the disc before it could be used. (This was less of an issue than it would have been in coparison with earlier ROM systems as the N64 also required the same for many types of compressed data but some other types of things could be mapped directly to memory as was common on earlier systems where almost everything could operate directly out of ROM. The same issue applies to the DS and is the tradeoff for heavily compressed storage.)
Load times are more annoying on a portable but the big difference is that the experience is going to be something no other platform is offering on the go. It does influence game developers decisions, such as always allowing saves and making checkpoints in games more frequent. Less use of streaming audio from the disc is another but that is also a reason to have all of that RAM. The earlier specs called for 8 MB but it was realized this would necessitate lots of quick short disc loads rather than much less frequent long loads and would make for reduced power efficiency.
The Xbox was outsold by the PS2 but the reasons are far more complex than 'power isn't everything.' For starters, you had the great disadvantage of an upstart entering the console business against the reigning champ and a former champ. Sony doesn't have that problem in launching the PSP. To much of the market their move into portable gaming wasn't a matter of if but when. Even with its advantages the Xbox was seen by casual shoppers as being of the same generation as the PS2. There wasn't the sort of gulf one would see if comparing the GameCube to the N64, which is pretty similar to comparing the PSP to the DS. Microsoft could have pursued a higher price point and loaded the machine up with the full 128 MB RAM it was designed to allow and some other features but on the same NTSC screen it would have been difficult to make those advanatages quickly obvious to shoppers. On portables it's very different. The display is part of the product. Shoppers can immediately see a huge difference between the PSP and DS. They know why one is $100 more than the other. It also makes a big difference when they see what appears to be ten year old games on the DS while on the PSP the games are comparable to what is on current consoles. When you're targeting affluent shoppers that means a lot. The DS' qualites take more time to appreciate for the casual shopper who isn't sure they want to fiddle with a pen or be seen in public cooing to an imaginary animal.
Ultimately it comes down to sales. If Sony keeps moving units as well as games and movies, it doesn't matter how much business the other guys do if they can't serve the same customers. The car dealer doing a high turnover in $35K BMWs isn't concerned about the guy down street selling a lot of $20K GM models. Nor does he worry about moving sedans and sports cars to guys in the market for a truck. It isn't an all or nothing business. It can seem that way at times but in the portable game business that had more to do with competitors running into brick walls rather than figuring out what that door knob thing was for. In Sony's case part of the formula has been to avoid contending for the low end audience and pursuing the opposite. They have past evidence to suggest it can be a winner if they find the right balance.[/QUOTE]
Ok so the DS is a whole generation behind the PSP. What I was getting at from the beginning anyway:
If the Nintendo DS starts selling more hardware based on great software Sony will have to lower their price if they want to compete.
Nintendogs being a very good example of this!
Then you said:
Ultimately it comes down to sales.
Isn't that the same thing? It is all "IF" scenarios at this point.
As for the games you act as if everything that makes the PSP so wonderful is how much storage a UMD has and how great the graphics are on the PSP. The truth is even though the DS Spider-Man 2 was only 2.5D in graphics I found it much more enjoyable than the 3D Spider-Man 2 on the PSP. If you ask a ton of people on this board what their favorite game of all time is it most likely isn't something out of this generation. If we are talking about the average consumer....yeah we know that most of them are graphics whores. The truth is though for pure gameplay the DS isn't a loser.
You keep expecting past products to serve as a guide but none of them are really indicators of anything but their own failures. Of them only the Nomad fits the brute force scenario. It was just a Genesis crammed in a box with a screen and batteries with no serious engineering effort to make it effective. Sega had no interest in doing so as the product only existed at TRU's request. It was never going to be true platform unto itself. As badly done as the Game Gear was, they at least made a go at reducing power usage and outfitting it with good accessories along with substantial software beyond what they could adapt from the Master System. (Some Game Gear titles had Master System releases in Europe where Nintendo's strength was less but the MS was completely unsupported in the US by then.)
The N-gage is just a joke, start to finish. It has a tiny group of adherents but most people looked at it and wondered what the attraction is supposed to be. (I remember being at their E3 launch event and realizing quickly they really had no idea what they were doing. Nothing since then has been a surprise.) Achieving multiplayer through a cell phone connection was a huge mistake when so much other advertising is devoted to tales of woe associated with cell phone costs. Nokia couldn't decide whether this would be a game system with wireless connectivity first or a cell phone first, so it ended up being lousy at both and really turned off customers from both directions.
By and large the Game Boy didn't beat any competitors so much as minded its own business while the rest self-destructed. You can find plenty of old ads where wouldbe competitors stressed their advantages but few where Nintendo took that approach. They stuck to their value formula and just kept moving along. Which was fine for the days when the market was narrower. Today there can be other portable game systems that take the same approach at a different level with neither really in direct competition.
Storage capacity matters quite a lot. PSP games are more expensive due to having near-console level facilites means a similar level of cost but the media is much, much less expensive than the DS's ROM. When you bring in the issue of capacity it only becomes worse. Just dropping in a bit of FMV is a huge decision for a DS game's publisher, since it can easily double the amount of ROM needed for just a small amount of video. On the PSP you're getting the full capacity of the inexpensive UMD regardless of how big your game is. You can fill it up however you like. Game demos, movie trailers, music videos, game documentaries, or whatever else they can think of, even just empty space. There is no penalty for any of it. Developers and publishers are free of the media capacity issue.
The advantage will only increase as down the road the most popular PSP games receive the GH treatment, including a much lower price. At the same time it is unlikely Nintendo can match this. Recall how they acted like they were doing everyone a big favor when elderly N64 games were treated as Player's choice bargains at $40? The problem for them is that they can only do price reductions as their costs go down for the production of each cart. On PSP UMDs, the cost per unit is very low from the very beginning and the price driven primarily by development costs. A big PSP hit can pay off those cost very quickly and evey unit there after either sold at a very high profit or reduced in price to increase the reach of the game but still make a good profit. On the DS it doesn't matter how fast a game sells, the cost of that ROM isn't changing any time soon.
As for load times, if you want to cast the PSP as PS1 to the DS' N64, let us recall there were load times aplenty on the PS1, yet it carried the generation and beyond. Because the stuff being loaded was worth waiting for. But we aren't talking about PS1. This machine has an even greater payoff since it has 8 times the RAM of the PS1. This is another part of the PSP's expense but that 32 MB of RAM is a huge factor in what game developers can achieve with the platform and a pure example of 'you get what you pay for.' On the PS1 there was a bit of a penalty for having approximately the same RAM space as the N64 but having to load everything off the disc before it could be used. (This was less of an issue than it would have been in coparison with earlier ROM systems as the N64 also required the same for many types of compressed data but some other types of things could be mapped directly to memory as was common on earlier systems where almost everything could operate directly out of ROM. The same issue applies to the DS and is the tradeoff for heavily compressed storage.)
Load times are more annoying on a portable but the big difference is that the experience is going to be something no other platform is offering on the go. It does influence game developers decisions, such as always allowing saves and making checkpoints in games more frequent. Less use of streaming audio from the disc is another but that is also a reason to have all of that RAM. The earlier specs called for 8 MB but it was realized this would necessitate lots of quick short disc loads rather than much less frequent long loads and would make for reduced power efficiency.
The Xbox was outsold by the PS2 but the reasons are far more complex than 'power isn't everything.' For starters, you had the great disadvantage of an upstart entering the console business against the reigning champ and a former champ. Sony doesn't have that problem in launching the PSP. To much of the market their move into portable gaming wasn't a matter of if but when. Even with its advantages the Xbox was seen by casual shoppers as being of the same generation as the PS2. There wasn't the sort of gulf one would see if comparing the GameCube to the N64, which is pretty similar to comparing the PSP to the DS. Microsoft could have pursued a higher price point and loaded the machine up with the full 128 MB RAM it was designed to allow and some other features but on the same NTSC screen it would have been difficult to make those advanatages quickly obvious to shoppers. On portables it's very different. The display is part of the product. Shoppers can immediately see a huge difference between the PSP and DS. They know why one is $100 more than the other. It also makes a big difference when they see what appears to be ten year old games on the DS while on the PSP the games are comparable to what is on current consoles. When you're targeting affluent shoppers that means a lot. The DS' qualites take more time to appreciate for the casual shopper who isn't sure they want to fiddle with a pen or be seen in public cooing to an imaginary animal.
Ultimately it comes down to sales. If Sony keeps moving units as well as games and movies, it doesn't matter how much business the other guys do if they can't serve the same customers. The car dealer doing a high turnover in $35K BMWs isn't concerned about the guy down street selling a lot of $20K GM models. Nor does he worry about moving sedans and sports cars to guys in the market for a truck. It isn't an all or nothing business. It can seem that way at times but in the portable game business that had more to do with competitors running into brick walls rather than figuring out what that door knob thing was for. In Sony's case part of the formula has been to avoid contending for the low end audience and pursuing the opposite. They have past evidence to suggest it can be a winner if they find the right balance.[/QUOTE]
Ok so the DS is a whole generation behind the PSP. What I was getting at from the beginning anyway:
If the Nintendo DS starts selling more hardware based on great software Sony will have to lower their price if they want to compete.
Nintendogs being a very good example of this!
Then you said:
Ultimately it comes down to sales.
Isn't that the same thing? It is all "IF" scenarios at this point.
As for the games you act as if everything that makes the PSP so wonderful is how much storage a UMD has and how great the graphics are on the PSP. The truth is even though the DS Spider-Man 2 was only 2.5D in graphics I found it much more enjoyable than the 3D Spider-Man 2 on the PSP. If you ask a ton of people on this board what their favorite game of all time is it most likely isn't something out of this generation. If we are talking about the average consumer....yeah we know that most of them are graphics whores. The truth is though for pure gameplay the DS isn't a loser.
[quote name='jkam']Ok so the DS is a whole generation behind the PSP. What I was getting at from the beginning anyway:
If the Nintendo DS starts selling more hardware based on great software Sony will have to lower their price if they want to compete.
Nintendogs being a very good example of this!
Then you said:
Ultimately it comes down to sales.
Isn't that the same thing? It is all "IF" scenarios at this point.
As for the games you act as if everything that makes the PSP so wonderful is how much storage a UMD has and how great the graphics are on the PSP. The truth is even though the DS Spider-Man 2 was only 2.5D in graphics I found it much more enjoyable than the 3D Spider-Man 2 on the PSP. If you ask a ton of people on this board what their favorite game of all time is it most likely isn't something out of this generation. If we are talking about the average consumer....yeah we know that most of them are graphics whores. The truth is though for pure gameplay the DS isn't a loser.[/QUOTE]
I never said the DS is a loser. You keep trying to perceive insult where none exists and missing the point. OTOH, don't depend on Nintendogs to guarantee the platform's future. Many items that attract a big audience have limited benefit for the platform beyond that sale, much like the immense numbers who Buy Madden and little else. Do you really believe the people who bought a DS just for Nintendogs were saving up for a PSP and Metal Gear Acid but changed their minds? Or were they largely a new audience who leaped on a hot new fad, as is so common in Japan? Many of the reports indicate that. Which is fine. Nintendo just needs to find a way to keep those people buying more stuff or in a few months the secondhand market will be flooded with used DS hardware haunted by abandoned virtual dogs. That is always the challenge when a single title causes a big run on a platform, be it a puppy simulator or a criminal career simulator.
Success for either the DS or PSP doesn't come at the detriment of the other. Both are reaching different audiences. The market is plenty big enough both to find good sized audiences individually and a subset who'll buy both. Sony doesn't need to defeat Nintendo in a market where Nintendo isn't present. If you look upon portable gaming as an all or nothing proposition the comparison would matter but the market neither that small or limited in its definitions when it goes shopping for a portable game. Selling the PSP isn't contingent on what scores big on the DS but rather on what is seen as attractive on the PSP that the DS cannot match. The hardware base offers a lot of opportunity for that on several fronts: processing power, graphic sophistication, cheap distribution medium of massively greater capacity, and high capacity local storage via Memory Stick Duo. We're already seeing additional downloadable content for PSP launch title. Without releasing a flash memory cart for the GBA slot there is no way for Nintendo to match that. A minor advantage but its very early yet. A lot of games that require very large save files would make for prohibitively expensive DS carts. (Which raises some questions about how Animal Crossing DS will differ from its big brother that was bundled with a memory card due to its appetite for data save space.)
What does it matter what wistful memories of generations past longtime gamers have? The market is driven by what people are interested in buying today. The PS1 was able to do massively greater business than the N64 despite the greater sophistication of the N64 chipset because those things offered by cheap high capacity storage meant a great deal to delivering those elements that grew the console market substantially over the previous generation. Purists may disdain those elements but money talks. The cold hard fact is tens of millions of new customers took an interest in video games when the combination of 3D and optical discs became part of the base platform. Those were part of what allowed a well organized new console brand to seize the #1 spot in a single generation and by a very large margin.
Storage is not the be all and end all of gaming success. It took a while for CD-ROM to make a difference. The PS1 was the first CD-ROM based platform (where there was no ROM based entry level system like a Turbo Grafx or Genesis) to be a success. But what a success it was, because Sony figured out where everyone else had gone wrong in exploiting the medium and had unique advantages in doing it right. When the PS1 became not only the dominant platform but also outsold the previous champs by an average of 50% in all major markets that said a lot about how the audience liked the things it provided. Those features became part of the audiences expectations for all futures consoles. When those features come to a portable it cannot help but make a big impression on a lot of people.
People become accustomed to certain features they appreciate in their luxuries. They buy the $30,000 car instead of the $20,000 car of similar functionality not from need but because of the greater comfort and enjoyment they feel it delivers. If they can afford it, that is their choice. The $20K car, if a good product for its price point, will see plenty of business from buyers who are less feature conscious or simply less financially able to indulge. It is up to the car maker to make the right bet on targeting that price point as to whether it offers enough customers in relation to the qualities of the product. That is the bet Sony has made. That the market will show up in sufficient numbers to make the PSP a profitable venture. Nintendo isn't required to fail for Sony to succeed.
It doesn't matter if the DS makes profits for Nintendo. That doesn't come out of Sony's pocket any more than those people for who the PSP is their first portable. (My brother is one of those. He's bought lots of GB stuff over the years for his kids, most recently a DS for each but the PSP is the first portable he bought for himself for filling in dead periods on the job.) Sony's challenge is finding enough of those people to make it a good business. Until someone offers a product that competes with the PSP feature set they just don't have much reason to drop the price until the cost allows it to happen with increased loss.
If the Nintendo DS starts selling more hardware based on great software Sony will have to lower their price if they want to compete.
Nintendogs being a very good example of this!
Then you said:
Ultimately it comes down to sales.
Isn't that the same thing? It is all "IF" scenarios at this point.
As for the games you act as if everything that makes the PSP so wonderful is how much storage a UMD has and how great the graphics are on the PSP. The truth is even though the DS Spider-Man 2 was only 2.5D in graphics I found it much more enjoyable than the 3D Spider-Man 2 on the PSP. If you ask a ton of people on this board what their favorite game of all time is it most likely isn't something out of this generation. If we are talking about the average consumer....yeah we know that most of them are graphics whores. The truth is though for pure gameplay the DS isn't a loser.[/QUOTE]
I never said the DS is a loser. You keep trying to perceive insult where none exists and missing the point. OTOH, don't depend on Nintendogs to guarantee the platform's future. Many items that attract a big audience have limited benefit for the platform beyond that sale, much like the immense numbers who Buy Madden and little else. Do you really believe the people who bought a DS just for Nintendogs were saving up for a PSP and Metal Gear Acid but changed their minds? Or were they largely a new audience who leaped on a hot new fad, as is so common in Japan? Many of the reports indicate that. Which is fine. Nintendo just needs to find a way to keep those people buying more stuff or in a few months the secondhand market will be flooded with used DS hardware haunted by abandoned virtual dogs. That is always the challenge when a single title causes a big run on a platform, be it a puppy simulator or a criminal career simulator.
Success for either the DS or PSP doesn't come at the detriment of the other. Both are reaching different audiences. The market is plenty big enough both to find good sized audiences individually and a subset who'll buy both. Sony doesn't need to defeat Nintendo in a market where Nintendo isn't present. If you look upon portable gaming as an all or nothing proposition the comparison would matter but the market neither that small or limited in its definitions when it goes shopping for a portable game. Selling the PSP isn't contingent on what scores big on the DS but rather on what is seen as attractive on the PSP that the DS cannot match. The hardware base offers a lot of opportunity for that on several fronts: processing power, graphic sophistication, cheap distribution medium of massively greater capacity, and high capacity local storage via Memory Stick Duo. We're already seeing additional downloadable content for PSP launch title. Without releasing a flash memory cart for the GBA slot there is no way for Nintendo to match that. A minor advantage but its very early yet. A lot of games that require very large save files would make for prohibitively expensive DS carts. (Which raises some questions about how Animal Crossing DS will differ from its big brother that was bundled with a memory card due to its appetite for data save space.)
What does it matter what wistful memories of generations past longtime gamers have? The market is driven by what people are interested in buying today. The PS1 was able to do massively greater business than the N64 despite the greater sophistication of the N64 chipset because those things offered by cheap high capacity storage meant a great deal to delivering those elements that grew the console market substantially over the previous generation. Purists may disdain those elements but money talks. The cold hard fact is tens of millions of new customers took an interest in video games when the combination of 3D and optical discs became part of the base platform. Those were part of what allowed a well organized new console brand to seize the #1 spot in a single generation and by a very large margin.
Storage is not the be all and end all of gaming success. It took a while for CD-ROM to make a difference. The PS1 was the first CD-ROM based platform (where there was no ROM based entry level system like a Turbo Grafx or Genesis) to be a success. But what a success it was, because Sony figured out where everyone else had gone wrong in exploiting the medium and had unique advantages in doing it right. When the PS1 became not only the dominant platform but also outsold the previous champs by an average of 50% in all major markets that said a lot about how the audience liked the things it provided. Those features became part of the audiences expectations for all futures consoles. When those features come to a portable it cannot help but make a big impression on a lot of people.
People become accustomed to certain features they appreciate in their luxuries. They buy the $30,000 car instead of the $20,000 car of similar functionality not from need but because of the greater comfort and enjoyment they feel it delivers. If they can afford it, that is their choice. The $20K car, if a good product for its price point, will see plenty of business from buyers who are less feature conscious or simply less financially able to indulge. It is up to the car maker to make the right bet on targeting that price point as to whether it offers enough customers in relation to the qualities of the product. That is the bet Sony has made. That the market will show up in sufficient numbers to make the PSP a profitable venture. Nintendo isn't required to fail for Sony to succeed.
It doesn't matter if the DS makes profits for Nintendo. That doesn't come out of Sony's pocket any more than those people for who the PSP is their first portable. (My brother is one of those. He's bought lots of GB stuff over the years for his kids, most recently a DS for each but the PSP is the first portable he bought for himself for filling in dead periods on the job.) Sony's challenge is finding enough of those people to make it a good business. Until someone offers a product that competes with the PSP feature set they just don't have much reason to drop the price until the cost allows it to happen with increased loss.
Here's something that continues to befuddle me:
It's often been said that Sony and Nintendo are going after different markets, but how does that help Sony? It almost seems like the market that they're going after is a lost cause, and I don't really see how they could make any money with their current strategy.
Let's look at Nintendo. I would say that they're going after a rather general market. It has it's bases covered with the kid market, the core gamer market, and the casual gamer market. Those are 3 important markets, especially when it comes to moving software. It's also important to note that, in most cases, these markets consist of people that have time and means to play games (and thus buy more games).
Sony is going after the 18-35 male demographic no? It's widely known that Sony isn't making any money on the PSP itself, so they would have to make up their money in software sales (the common way to make money in this business). The thing is, the demographic they're going after doesn't seem like it would be inclined to buy a lot of software. A good amount of 18-35 males drive themselves to work, so there's gameplay time lost. Granted, there's the train/carpool category, but is that enough? Does this demographic have the time in the day to actually play a portable system?
Here's why I ask. Most of us have seen examples of this demographic, and the games they buy (GTA/Madden/Halo). The problem that I've seen is that they won't buy many more games after those initial blockbusters. I half-remember a statistic that most of the people that own a PS2 also only own 6 or so games.
So how is Sony going to make money? They're losing money on the system, and they're going after people that don't really buy a lot of videogames. So yeah, you could say that "Sony is fine because they're going after a different market", but how smart of a strategy is it when you break it down? It would be like if Sony put out a console that was directly marketed to the 60-80 year old demographic. Yeah, they have that all to themselves, but it's not guarenteed to be proffitable.
It's often been said that Sony and Nintendo are going after different markets, but how does that help Sony? It almost seems like the market that they're going after is a lost cause, and I don't really see how they could make any money with their current strategy.
Let's look at Nintendo. I would say that they're going after a rather general market. It has it's bases covered with the kid market, the core gamer market, and the casual gamer market. Those are 3 important markets, especially when it comes to moving software. It's also important to note that, in most cases, these markets consist of people that have time and means to play games (and thus buy more games).
Sony is going after the 18-35 male demographic no? It's widely known that Sony isn't making any money on the PSP itself, so they would have to make up their money in software sales (the common way to make money in this business). The thing is, the demographic they're going after doesn't seem like it would be inclined to buy a lot of software. A good amount of 18-35 males drive themselves to work, so there's gameplay time lost. Granted, there's the train/carpool category, but is that enough? Does this demographic have the time in the day to actually play a portable system?
Here's why I ask. Most of us have seen examples of this demographic, and the games they buy (GTA/Madden/Halo). The problem that I've seen is that they won't buy many more games after those initial blockbusters. I half-remember a statistic that most of the people that own a PS2 also only own 6 or so games.
So how is Sony going to make money? They're losing money on the system, and they're going after people that don't really buy a lot of videogames. So yeah, you could say that "Sony is fine because they're going after a different market", but how smart of a strategy is it when you break it down? It would be like if Sony put out a console that was directly marketed to the 60-80 year old demographic. Yeah, they have that all to themselves, but it's not guarenteed to be proffitable.
i think side by side, there is no competition between the 2 systems.
if one has both, one would obviously choose, say, madden on the psp over the ds (unless there was something really innovative used for the touch screen, in 2005 it wasnt that useful.)
the DS will live or die on 2 types of games. nintendo exclusives, and games that innovate with the touch screen. right now it looks like both of those game types will be strong through the end of the year.
the PSP will live or die on offering games similar to those found on the ps2. which it seems to be doing fairly well at this point.
its really all about what appeals to you most, theres no reason to not own both (funds permitting)
if one has both, one would obviously choose, say, madden on the psp over the ds (unless there was something really innovative used for the touch screen, in 2005 it wasnt that useful.)
the DS will live or die on 2 types of games. nintendo exclusives, and games that innovate with the touch screen. right now it looks like both of those game types will be strong through the end of the year.
the PSP will live or die on offering games similar to those found on the ps2. which it seems to be doing fairly well at this point.
its really all about what appeals to you most, theres no reason to not own both (funds permitting)
[quote name='gizmogc']I can't see Nintendo dropping the DS to $99.99 and launching the Micro at $49.99...whats the point? For $50 more, you would be able to play a whole new format of games.[/QUOTE]
im going to go out on a limb here and say the ds will stay at $150 until e3 next year.
maybe they will bundle it with a game this winter, but with the lineup they have theres no need to drop the price.
im going to go out on a limb here and say the ds will stay at $150 until e3 next year.
maybe they will bundle it with a game this winter, but with the lineup they have theres no need to drop the price.
[quote name='epobirs']I never said the DS is a loser. You keep trying to perceive insult where none exists and missing the point. OTOH, don't depend on Nintendogs to guarantee the platform's future. Many items that attract a big audience have limited benefit for the platform beyond that sale, much like the immense numbers who Buy Madden and little else. Do you really believe the people who bought a DS just for Nintendogs were saving up for a PSP and Metal Gear Acid but changed their minds? Or were they largely a new audience who leaped on a hot new fad, as is so common in Japan? Many of the reports indicate that. Which is fine. Nintendo just needs to find a way to keep those people buying more stuff or in a few months the secondhand market will be flooded with used DS hardware haunted by abandoned virtual dogs. That is always the challenge when a single title causes a big run on a platform, be it a puppy simulator or a criminal career simulator.
Success for either the DS or PSP doesn't come at the detriment of the other. Both are reaching different audiences. The market is plenty big enough both to find good sized audiences individually and a subset who'll buy both. Sony doesn't need to defeat Nintendo in a market where Nintendo isn't present. If you look upon portable gaming as an all or nothing proposition the comparison would matter but the market neither that small or limited in its definitions when it goes shopping for a portable game. Selling the PSP isn't contingent on what scores big on the DS but rather on what is seen as attractive on the PSP that the DS cannot match. The hardware base offers a lot of opportunity for that on several fronts: processing power, graphic sophistication, cheap distribution medium of massively greater capacity, and high capacity local storage via Memory Stick Duo. We're already seeing additional downloadable content for PSP launch title. Without releasing a flash memory cart for the GBA slot there is no way for Nintendo to match that. A minor advantage but its very early yet. A lot of games that require very large save files would make for prohibitively expensive DS carts. (Which raises some questions about how Animal Crossing DS will differ from its big brother that was bundled with a memory card due to its appetite for data save space.)
What does it matter what wistful memories of generations past longtime gamers have? The market is driven by what people are interested in buying today. The PS1 was able to do massively greater business than the N64 despite the greater sophistication of the N64 chipset because those things offered by cheap high capacity storage meant a great deal to delivering those elements that grew the console market substantially over the previous generation. Purists may disdain those elements but money talks. The cold hard fact is tens of millions of new customers took an interest in video games when the combination of 3D and optical discs became part of the base platform. Those were part of what allowed a well organized new console brand to seize the #1 spot in a single generation and by a very large margin.
Storage is not the be all and end all of gaming success. It took a while for CD-ROM to make a difference. The PS1 was the first CD-ROM based platform (where there was no ROM based entry level system like a Turbo Grafx or Genesis) to be a success. But what a success it was, because Sony figured out where everyone else had gone wrong in exploiting the medium and had unique advantages in doing it right. When the PS1 became not only the dominant platform but also outsold the previous champs by an average of 50% in all major markets that said a lot about how the audience liked the things it provided. Those features became part of the audiences expectations for all futures consoles. When those features come to a portable it cannot help but make a big impression on a lot of people.
People become accustomed to certain features they appreciate in their luxuries. They buy the $30,000 car instead of the $20,000 car of similar functionality not from need but because of the greater comfort and enjoyment they feel it delivers. If they can afford it, that is their choice. The $20K car, if a good product for its price point, will see plenty of business from buyers who are less feature conscious or simply less financially able to indulge. It is up to the car maker to make the right bet on targeting that price point as to whether it offers enough customers in relation to the qualities of the product. That is the bet Sony has made. That the market will show up in sufficient numbers to make the PSP a profitable venture. Nintendo isn't required to fail for Sony to succeed.
It doesn't matter if the DS makes profits for Nintendo. That doesn't come out of Sony's pocket any more than those people for who the PSP is their first portable. (My brother is one of those. He's bought lots of GB stuff over the years for his kids, most recently a DS for each but the PSP is the first portable he bought for himself for filling in dead periods on the job.) Sony's challenge is finding enough of those people to make it a good business. Until someone offers a product that competes with the PSP feature set they just don't have much reason to drop the price until the cost allows it to happen with increased loss.[/QUOTE]
Alright I guess I did go over the edge a bit with that last post. You did however admit it comes down to sales. So let's just say that the DS comes out with 3 new games that start selling DS systems like WILDFIRE, way more than the PSP for say 6 months....wouldn't that cause Sony a little bit of alarm? Wouldn't they need to do something in order to compete? Even though they are on seperate levels they are still a piece of the overall portable gaming pie.
You spoke in your last post about storage and FMV segments. This may have been a neat trick on the SEGA CD and the Turbo Graphix CD when they came out but are people really buying games based on FMVs? How does this help the gameplay? Please don't say immersion.
I understand they are different systems but I still believe that if the DS outsold the PSP in large numbers it would have to affect the PSP's price.
Success for either the DS or PSP doesn't come at the detriment of the other. Both are reaching different audiences. The market is plenty big enough both to find good sized audiences individually and a subset who'll buy both. Sony doesn't need to defeat Nintendo in a market where Nintendo isn't present. If you look upon portable gaming as an all or nothing proposition the comparison would matter but the market neither that small or limited in its definitions when it goes shopping for a portable game. Selling the PSP isn't contingent on what scores big on the DS but rather on what is seen as attractive on the PSP that the DS cannot match. The hardware base offers a lot of opportunity for that on several fronts: processing power, graphic sophistication, cheap distribution medium of massively greater capacity, and high capacity local storage via Memory Stick Duo. We're already seeing additional downloadable content for PSP launch title. Without releasing a flash memory cart for the GBA slot there is no way for Nintendo to match that. A minor advantage but its very early yet. A lot of games that require very large save files would make for prohibitively expensive DS carts. (Which raises some questions about how Animal Crossing DS will differ from its big brother that was bundled with a memory card due to its appetite for data save space.)
What does it matter what wistful memories of generations past longtime gamers have? The market is driven by what people are interested in buying today. The PS1 was able to do massively greater business than the N64 despite the greater sophistication of the N64 chipset because those things offered by cheap high capacity storage meant a great deal to delivering those elements that grew the console market substantially over the previous generation. Purists may disdain those elements but money talks. The cold hard fact is tens of millions of new customers took an interest in video games when the combination of 3D and optical discs became part of the base platform. Those were part of what allowed a well organized new console brand to seize the #1 spot in a single generation and by a very large margin.
Storage is not the be all and end all of gaming success. It took a while for CD-ROM to make a difference. The PS1 was the first CD-ROM based platform (where there was no ROM based entry level system like a Turbo Grafx or Genesis) to be a success. But what a success it was, because Sony figured out where everyone else had gone wrong in exploiting the medium and had unique advantages in doing it right. When the PS1 became not only the dominant platform but also outsold the previous champs by an average of 50% in all major markets that said a lot about how the audience liked the things it provided. Those features became part of the audiences expectations for all futures consoles. When those features come to a portable it cannot help but make a big impression on a lot of people.
People become accustomed to certain features they appreciate in their luxuries. They buy the $30,000 car instead of the $20,000 car of similar functionality not from need but because of the greater comfort and enjoyment they feel it delivers. If they can afford it, that is their choice. The $20K car, if a good product for its price point, will see plenty of business from buyers who are less feature conscious or simply less financially able to indulge. It is up to the car maker to make the right bet on targeting that price point as to whether it offers enough customers in relation to the qualities of the product. That is the bet Sony has made. That the market will show up in sufficient numbers to make the PSP a profitable venture. Nintendo isn't required to fail for Sony to succeed.
It doesn't matter if the DS makes profits for Nintendo. That doesn't come out of Sony's pocket any more than those people for who the PSP is their first portable. (My brother is one of those. He's bought lots of GB stuff over the years for his kids, most recently a DS for each but the PSP is the first portable he bought for himself for filling in dead periods on the job.) Sony's challenge is finding enough of those people to make it a good business. Until someone offers a product that competes with the PSP feature set they just don't have much reason to drop the price until the cost allows it to happen with increased loss.[/QUOTE]
Alright I guess I did go over the edge a bit with that last post. You did however admit it comes down to sales. So let's just say that the DS comes out with 3 new games that start selling DS systems like WILDFIRE, way more than the PSP for say 6 months....wouldn't that cause Sony a little bit of alarm? Wouldn't they need to do something in order to compete? Even though they are on seperate levels they are still a piece of the overall portable gaming pie.
You spoke in your last post about storage and FMV segments. This may have been a neat trick on the SEGA CD and the Turbo Graphix CD when they came out but are people really buying games based on FMVs? How does this help the gameplay? Please don't say immersion.
I understand they are different systems but I still believe that if the DS outsold the PSP in large numbers it would have to affect the PSP's price.
adamsappel
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jkam, could you please edit the posts you're quoting? We've already read epobir's original post, keep the first and last paragraphs if you must and replace the rest with ellipses. There's no need to have all that repeated text.
Personally I thinks its a ploy to get those fence riders off the fence.
Most people assumed that there was a possibility that shortly after E3 there could be a price drop. Or a reduction from a value pack to just the system itself.
This is Sonys answer to those people. They are not moving the price for some time.
I dont think its any deeper than that.
The whole N64 to PS2 comparisons dont count. The fact is this is the current generation of handheld gaming. Both systems are fairly new and both are selling and getting hyped by various places.
Most people assumed that there was a possibility that shortly after E3 there could be a price drop. Or a reduction from a value pack to just the system itself.
This is Sonys answer to those people. They are not moving the price for some time.
I dont think its any deeper than that.
The whole N64 to PS2 comparisons dont count. The fact is this is the current generation of handheld gaming. Both systems are fairly new and both are selling and getting hyped by various places.
Definitely still rumors, but I believe a $200 "Value-less" PSP maybe possible by Xmas depending on sales between now and then.
Sony may send $199 PSP to U.S. retail
Published: June 2, 2005 9:42 AM PDT
by Punch Jump Crew
http://www.burstnet.com/ads/ad11306a-map.cgi/ns/v=2.0S/sz=300x250A/
Retailers like Best Buy and EBgames with a stocked line of Sony-branded PSP accessories indicate that the company may be sending a stand-alone $199 PSP to retailers. Items like Sony headphones, cases, 32MB Memory Stick, and battery chargers are now all for sale as individual items. However, they are exact to the ones currently included in the $249 PSP Value Pack
http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=922
Sony may send $199 PSP to U.S. retail
Published: June 2, 2005 9:42 AM PDT
by Punch Jump Crew
http://www.burstnet.com/ads/ad11306a-map.cgi/ns/v=2.0S/sz=300x250A/
Retailers like Best Buy and EBgames with a stocked line of Sony-branded PSP accessories indicate that the company may be sending a stand-alone $199 PSP to retailers. Items like Sony headphones, cases, 32MB Memory Stick, and battery chargers are now all for sale as individual items. However, they are exact to the ones currently included in the $249 PSP Value Pack
http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=922
[quote name='CheapyD']Definitely still rumors, but I believe a $200 "Value-less" PSP maybe possible by Xmas depending on sales between now and then.
Sony may send $199 PSP to U.S. retail
Published: June 2, 2005 9:42 AM PDT
by Punch Jump Crew
http://www.burstnet.com/ads/ad11306a-map.cgi/ns/v=2.0S/sz=300x250A/
Retailers like Best Buy and EBgames with a stocked line of Sony-branded PSP accessories indicate that the company may be sending a stand-alone $199 PSP to retailers. Items like Sony headphones, cases, 32MB Memory Stick, and battery chargers are now all for sale as individual items. However, they are exact to the ones currently included in the $249 PSP Value Pack
http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=922[/QUOTE]
yeah I was surprised seeing the hand strap, carry case, and memory stick (32mb) for say as individual items at Bestbuy 2 days ago.
Sony may send $199 PSP to U.S. retail
Published: June 2, 2005 9:42 AM PDT
by Punch Jump Crew
http://www.burstnet.com/ads/ad11306a-map.cgi/ns/v=2.0S/sz=300x250A/
Retailers like Best Buy and EBgames with a stocked line of Sony-branded PSP accessories indicate that the company may be sending a stand-alone $199 PSP to retailers. Items like Sony headphones, cases, 32MB Memory Stick, and battery chargers are now all for sale as individual items. However, they are exact to the ones currently included in the $249 PSP Value Pack
http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=922[/QUOTE]
yeah I was surprised seeing the hand strap, carry case, and memory stick (32mb) for say as individual items at Bestbuy 2 days ago.
Quackzilla
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As long as they keep selling the cheap 32MB memoryy stick they should be okay.
-Never4ever-
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I know this isn't very CAG like, but I believe this is a step in the right direction. I for one am always pissed by price drops, so much so that it effects my decision to buy a game (though never a system). Seriously they 
ed up the market so much with their GH lineup, it's about time they try and make amends.
ed up the market so much with their GH lineup, it's about time they try and make amends.
[quote name='RedvsBlue']
Quote:
Originally Posted by howlinmad
So now someone is an "anti-PSP" fanboy because they think it's too highly priced?
So, with your logic, that makes you a Sony fanboy because you obviously think it isn't.
The price is too high if they expect to keep it at that price point indefinatly. Hell, even some who have bought one admit it's too damn expensive.
Comparing the PSP to the IPOD price just makes no sense. Apple is consistantly updating the IPOD (as some have also pointed out). So what? Sony is going to upgrade the value pack to include an additional movie?
They will lower the price, that's a fact they either already know and won't say because that would make them admit it isn't selling as well as they had hoped, or are in huge denial.
Well let's see we have
Quote:
Originally Posted by thingsfallnapart
and in today's news, a complete BS statement from sony goes heard by the gaming world.
"WE WILL NOT DROP THE PRICE"
So, says the sony empire.
however in far away lands, far from the dreamworld sony lives in...in a place called reality....consumers will not open there pockets and lend a hand full of 500 dollars in cash to sony for a ps3.
Seems pretty anti sony and PSP in my opinion. There's also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkam
Let them keep their high ass prices....they need to be taken down a peg anyway. I love my PS2 but there just seems to be so many dumb ass statements coming from the Sony camp these days. Were better than the XBOX 360 because its the xbox 1.5, Were going to charge you this amount forever, 12 dead pixels is pefectly normal. UGH!
Sure that isn't really anti but its pretty far from pro also. Then right after my post you have:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drone8888
Well,..... here in Japan,... on my US base, you can't get one.
People are paying out their asses for Region 1 PSPs.
Sadly.
I wish I had kept my other 4 units, with crappy screens,... as these guys are drooling at the mouths for them.
They are still ridiculously priced, and are worthless.
If you want an MP3 player, get one you can jog with, that comes equipped with enough memory to suffice.
I am stupid, and so are the rest of you, for buying this piece of junk.
Admit it.
Live with it.
__________________[/QUOTE]
You can be anti-bootyed and not be anti-Sony or anti-PSP. Wow! You can even perfer one over another game system, yet dislike something about another and not be a fanboy.
$250 for as long as they want people to think, is too much. I can buy an IPod for $300 bucks, but they are constantly upgaded/changed. For either a buck each, or free I can put extra music on it. For 20-30 bucks I can watch You've Been Served on my PSP. For another 30-40, I can play a game. For 30 - 100 I can buy a new memory card.
I have a burned out pixel on my DS, Nintendo says don't worry. I have 10, Sony says suck it up.
Point being, I can spend 300 bucks on an IPod and get somewhat cheap use out of it after the inital purchase. That's not the case after I spend $250 for a handheld game system. I want one, but either when the price drops, or a cheap ass deal with trade ins.
It's called "getting too big for your britches".
Quote:
Originally Posted by howlinmad
So now someone is an "anti-PSP" fanboy because they think it's too highly priced?
So, with your logic, that makes you a Sony fanboy because you obviously think it isn't.
The price is too high if they expect to keep it at that price point indefinatly. Hell, even some who have bought one admit it's too damn expensive.
Comparing the PSP to the IPOD price just makes no sense. Apple is consistantly updating the IPOD (as some have also pointed out). So what? Sony is going to upgrade the value pack to include an additional movie?
They will lower the price, that's a fact they either already know and won't say because that would make them admit it isn't selling as well as they had hoped, or are in huge denial.
Well let's see we have
Quote:
Originally Posted by thingsfallnapart
and in today's news, a complete BS statement from sony goes heard by the gaming world.
"WE WILL NOT DROP THE PRICE"
So, says the sony empire.
however in far away lands, far from the dreamworld sony lives in...in a place called reality....consumers will not open there pockets and lend a hand full of 500 dollars in cash to sony for a ps3.
Seems pretty anti sony and PSP in my opinion. There's also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkam
Let them keep their high ass prices....they need to be taken down a peg anyway. I love my PS2 but there just seems to be so many dumb ass statements coming from the Sony camp these days. Were better than the XBOX 360 because its the xbox 1.5, Were going to charge you this amount forever, 12 dead pixels is pefectly normal. UGH!
Sure that isn't really anti but its pretty far from pro also. Then right after my post you have:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drone8888
Well,..... here in Japan,... on my US base, you can't get one.
People are paying out their asses for Region 1 PSPs.
Sadly.
I wish I had kept my other 4 units, with crappy screens,... as these guys are drooling at the mouths for them.
They are still ridiculously priced, and are worthless.
If you want an MP3 player, get one you can jog with, that comes equipped with enough memory to suffice.
I am stupid, and so are the rest of you, for buying this piece of junk.
Admit it.
Live with it.
__________________[/QUOTE]
You can be anti-booty
ed and not be anti-Sony or anti-PSP. Wow! You can even perfer one over another game system, yet dislike something about another and not be a fanboy. $250 for as long as they want people to think, is too much. I can buy an IPod for $300 bucks, but they are constantly upgaded/changed. For either a buck each, or free I can put extra music on it. For 20-30 bucks I can watch You've Been Served on my PSP. For another 30-40, I can play a game. For 30 - 100 I can buy a new memory card.
I have a burned out pixel on my DS, Nintendo says don't worry. I have 10, Sony says suck it up.
Point being, I can spend 300 bucks on an IPod and get somewhat cheap use out of it after the inital purchase. That's not the case after I spend $250 for a handheld game system. I want one, but either when the price drops, or a cheap ass deal with trade ins.
It's called "getting too big for your britches".
I love my PSP. It's hard for me to imagine getting a DS now although I probably will once there is a game or two worth playing (new SMB and Zelda come to mind). Once games like Burnout, GTA, Prince of Persia, Daxter and others start coming out I think sales will see a spike. We are still in the first few months of launch and if I remember correctly the DS didn't have much to talk about during the same time period. $250 is pretty reasonable for what amounts to a handheld PS2. In the grand scheme of things it's really not that much money and I imagine most people who want one will get one eventually.
-Never4ever-
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[quote name='howlinmad']You can be anti-booty ed and not be anti-Sony or anti-PSP. Wow! You can even perfer one over another game system, yet dislike something about another and not be a fanboy.
$250 for as long as they want people to think, is too much. I can buy an IPod for $300 bucks, but they are constantly upgaded/changed. For either a buck each, or free I can put extra music on it. For 20-30 bucks I can watch You've Been Served on my PSP. For another 30-40, I can play a game. For 30 - 100 I can buy a new memory card.
I have a burned out pixel on my DS, Nintendo says don't worry. I have 10, Sony says suck it up.
Point being, I can spend 300 bucks on an IPod and get somewhat cheap use out of it after the inital purchase. That's not the case after I spend $250 for a handheld game system. I want one, but either when the price drops, or a cheap ass deal with trade ins.
It's called "getting too big for your britches".[/QUOTE]
No, I belive it's called constant bitching.
Wow, I can get a half-assed music player for $300 whoopdie-ing-do, I can also get a half assed music player (and a mem stick) that plays video games and movies if I want to spend the extra money. Being the video game addict that I am, I bought a PSP because I like to play games on the go AND listen to music when I want to. Where as with an Ipod I'm relegated to just listening to music.
Do I believe that the bunch at Sony are heartless shills that should have came out with 2 versions of the PSP pack? Yes. Does that mean the PSP isn't worth the cash? To some it may not be, but to me it was most certainly worth it. Especially when compared to an overhyped music player.
PSP>Ipod
Next time try an argument that makes sense.
ed and not be anti-Sony or anti-PSP. Wow! You can even perfer one over another game system, yet dislike something about another and not be a fanboy. $250 for as long as they want people to think, is too much. I can buy an IPod for $300 bucks, but they are constantly upgaded/changed. For either a buck each, or free I can put extra music on it. For 20-30 bucks I can watch You've Been Served on my PSP. For another 30-40, I can play a game. For 30 - 100 I can buy a new memory card.
I have a burned out pixel on my DS, Nintendo says don't worry. I have 10, Sony says suck it up.
Point being, I can spend 300 bucks on an IPod and get somewhat cheap use out of it after the inital purchase. That's not the case after I spend $250 for a handheld game system. I want one, but either when the price drops, or a cheap ass deal with trade ins.
It's called "getting too big for your britches".
[/QUOTE]No, I belive it's called constant bitching.
Wow, I can get a half-assed music player for $300 whoopdie-
ing-do, I can also get a half assed music player (and a mem stick) that plays video games and movies if I want to spend the extra money. Being the video game addict that I am, I bought a PSP because I like to play games on the go AND listen to music when I want to. Where as with an Ipod I'm relegated to just listening to music. Do I believe that the bunch at Sony are heartless shills that should have came out with 2 versions of the PSP pack? Yes. Does that mean the PSP isn't worth the cash? To some it may not be, but to me it was most certainly worth it. Especially when compared to an overhyped music player.
PSP>Ipod
Next time try an argument that makes sense.
-Never4ever-
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[quote name='javeryh']I love my PSP. It's hard for me to imagine getting a DS now although I probably will once there is a game or two worth playing (new SMB and Zelda come to mind). Once games like Burnout, GTA, Prince of Persia, Daxter and others start coming out I think sales will see a spike. We are still in the first few months of launch and if I remember correctly the DS didn't have much to talk about during the same time period. $250 is pretty reasonable for what amounts to a handheld PS2. In the grand scheme of things it's really not that much money and I imagine most people who want one will get one eventually.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but it was selling like hotcakes (and still is).
Yeah, but it was selling like hotcakes (and still is).
To me, it sounds like they are saying this to get people, who are waiting for the price drop, to purchase now rather than wait for a price drop that "isn't going to happen". I really don't see how they plan on the PSP being a success if they don't drop it soon. I would expect a drop before xmas season, or at least a barebones version to undercut 360 sales.
Well, in this article makes an interesting point on the rumors of $200 a la carte PSP.
"It does seem a little strange amid claims that PSP production is not yet up to levels to satisfy a European launch however; expect more information shortly"
http://www.totalvideogames.com/pages/articles/index.php?article_id=7815
"It does seem a little strange amid claims that PSP production is not yet up to levels to satisfy a European launch however; expect more information shortly"
http://www.totalvideogames.com/pages/articles/index.php?article_id=7815
Dr Mario Kart
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a $250 PSP Pack would get totally served by a $300 Xbox 360 come Christmas time if they continue to be that foolhardy.
urzishra14
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[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']If they could sell everyone an ipod at $300 why would they create ipod that cost less money? Becuase not everyone will pay $300 for an ipod and not everyone will pay $250 for a PSP.[/QUOTE]
didn't read to see if this was mentioned..
but Apple did create more "budget" versions of the IPOD (like an Ipod shuffle) and more elaborate (photo IPod).. so those weren't "price drops" per se but those did spur a bunch of sales for people who thought the Ipod was too expensive. PSP won't be able to compete if it stays at 250.. a 199 price point would garner the most buyers for the cost. especially since a lot of people (not just CAGers) are waiting for a drop to 200 before picking up on it. I for one hate that their movies lack in a lot of departments but still retail for the same as DVDs. that makes me upset.. sigh.. i guess i could always encode my own DVDs.. but yeah.. keeping it the same price is suicide for Sony when these start to stockpile shelves. and does that mean that no price drops for software either?
didn't read to see if this was mentioned..
but Apple did create more "budget" versions of the IPOD (like an Ipod shuffle) and more elaborate (photo IPod).. so those weren't "price drops" per se but those did spur a bunch of sales for people who thought the Ipod was too expensive. PSP won't be able to compete if it stays at 250.. a 199 price point would garner the most buyers for the cost. especially since a lot of people (not just CAGers) are waiting for a drop to 200 before picking up on it. I for one hate that their movies lack in a lot of departments but still retail for the same as DVDs. that makes me upset.. sigh.. i guess i could always encode my own DVDs.. but yeah.. keeping it the same price is suicide for Sony when these start to stockpile shelves. and does that mean that no price drops for software either?
Disclaimer:
I am not in any way saying this will change PSP sales or bashing the PSP.
Nintendo is really trying to hammer home the price difference of the DS and the PSP with including Mario 64 with a DS purchase next week. $150 for a system with a game looks better than $250 for a system with a pouch, earphones, and a remote. I think it's a pretty smart move by Nintendo.
I am not in any way saying this will change PSP sales or bashing the PSP.
Nintendo is really trying to hammer home the price difference of the DS and the PSP with including Mario 64 with a DS purchase next week. $150 for a system with a game looks better than $250 for a system with a pouch, earphones, and a remote. I think it's a pretty smart move by Nintendo.
HeadRusch
CAGiversary!
[quote name='urzishra14']
PSP won't be able to compete if it stays at 250.. a 199 price point would garner the most buyers for the cost. especially since a lot of people (not just CAGers) are waiting for a drop to 200 before picking up on it.
[/QUOTE]
Well this is really speculation, and not fact. If you want to look at facts, the sony PSP at $250 is sold out at many many locations, with stock trickling in...not flooding in. This would seem to indicate that Sony is keeping a tight watch on demand and not over-producing the console. I see the PSP competing just fine with its Nintendo rivals at its current pricepoint. The things are hardly piling up at $250.
Sure you'll get more buyers at $200, but Sony isn't anywhere near that point yet. Maybe in a years time..maybe around xmas a $250 price point with a FREE GAME might be more likely than a drop to $200, but who knows what the market will dictate then if XBOX 360 hits.....where peoples money will go, etc.
I agree that charging $20 bucks for a UMD movie is insane, that is one area where I think Sony is dropping the ball. At $9.99 those UMD movies would fly off the shelves with people building up entire portable collections.
Then again...last time I checked those stupidly expensive Memory Stick Pro Duo cards at 1gb were sold out almost everywhere...so maybe Sony IS Smart
Let the people who dont know any better pay $20 for a movie to carry around, while letting the geeks who choose to "roll their own" do so...but only by buying a $100 accessory Seriously, its genius
However the system is like 4 months old............and you guys are already looking for a price drop on the thing, and a dramatic one at that. Its an unrealistic expectation.
The PSP is just starting to get rolling...really good use of the machine probably wont appear until well into 2007....
PSP won't be able to compete if it stays at 250.. a 199 price point would garner the most buyers for the cost. especially since a lot of people (not just CAGers) are waiting for a drop to 200 before picking up on it.
[/QUOTE]
Well this is really speculation, and not fact. If you want to look at facts, the sony PSP at $250 is sold out at many many locations, with stock trickling in...not flooding in. This would seem to indicate that Sony is keeping a tight watch on demand and not over-producing the console. I see the PSP competing just fine with its Nintendo rivals at its current pricepoint. The things are hardly piling up at $250.
Sure you'll get more buyers at $200, but Sony isn't anywhere near that point yet. Maybe in a years time..maybe around xmas a $250 price point with a FREE GAME might be more likely than a drop to $200, but who knows what the market will dictate then if XBOX 360 hits.....where peoples money will go, etc.
I agree that charging $20 bucks for a UMD movie is insane, that is one area where I think Sony is dropping the ball. At $9.99 those UMD movies would fly off the shelves with people building up entire portable collections.
Then again...last time I checked those stupidly expensive Memory Stick Pro Duo cards at 1gb were sold out almost everywhere...so maybe Sony IS Smart
Let the people who dont know any better pay $20 for a movie to carry around, while letting the geeks who choose to "roll their own" do so...but only by buying a $100 accessory
Seriously, its genius However the system is like 4 months old............and you guys are already looking for a price drop on the thing, and a dramatic one at that. Its an unrealistic expectation.
The PSP is just starting to get rolling...really good use of the machine probably wont appear until well into 2007....
urzishra14
CAGiversary!
- Feedback
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[quote name='jkam']Disclaimer:
I am not in any way saying this will change PSP sales or bashing the PSP.
Nintendo is really trying to hammer home the price difference of the DS and the PSP with including Mario 64 with a DS purchase next week. $150 for a system with a game looks better than $250 for a system with a pouch, earphones, and a remote. I think it's a pretty smart move by Nintendo.[/QUOTE]
i think you missed the point on what was said earlier.. Nintendo is going for a different audience then what Sony is going for. There is absolutely no possible way that the PSP will crush the DS nor will it be the other way around (read page 3 for a more in depth conversation about it). Sony wants to be a portable MEDIA center where nintendo is doing what its always done with its systems very GAME centered. I think I would sway towards the PSP because I like the fact I could watch movies on it (be it through UMD or Memory stick) I could be swayed if the online capabilities of the DS are freaking amazing (although I think a headset is required for online gaming to be truely amazing).. if Sony can make a headset to go in the memorycard port (i'm not familiar with the outlet specs for the PSP, but i would assume this would be there, unless it has USB or Firewire) for the PSP online gaming would be amazing. Sony's problem with online gaming is that nobody wants to play a game and type on a keyboard (thats why the xbox kicks ass for the online market)
ROb
EDIT: in regards to HeadR.. i know right now it is just speculation i'm just saying there has got to be a lot of gamers like minded in the way of waiting till a 200 price point before purchasing. yes it is enticeful to pay for a 1GB memory stick but i think sony would make more money if they did it at the 9.99 price point like you said. eventually titles will hit 9.99 and below.. and yes PSPs are flying off the shelves at 250 and maybe thats the best price for it to be at the moment.
I am not in any way saying this will change PSP sales or bashing the PSP.
Nintendo is really trying to hammer home the price difference of the DS and the PSP with including Mario 64 with a DS purchase next week. $150 for a system with a game looks better than $250 for a system with a pouch, earphones, and a remote. I think it's a pretty smart move by Nintendo.[/QUOTE]
i think you missed the point on what was said earlier.. Nintendo is going for a different audience then what Sony is going for. There is absolutely no possible way that the PSP will crush the DS nor will it be the other way around (read page 3 for a more in depth conversation about it). Sony wants to be a portable MEDIA center where nintendo is doing what its always done with its systems very GAME centered. I think I would sway towards the PSP because I like the fact I could watch movies on it (be it through UMD or Memory stick) I could be swayed if the online capabilities of the DS are freaking amazing (although I think a headset is required for online gaming to be truely amazing).. if Sony can make a headset to go in the memorycard port (i'm not familiar with the outlet specs for the PSP, but i would assume this would be there, unless it has USB or Firewire) for the PSP online gaming would be amazing. Sony's problem with online gaming is that nobody wants to play a game and type on a keyboard (thats why the xbox kicks ass for the online market)
ROb
EDIT: in regards to HeadR.. i know right now it is just speculation i'm just saying there has got to be a lot of gamers like minded in the way of waiting till a 200 price point before purchasing. yes it is enticeful to pay for a 1GB memory stick but i think sony would make more money if they did it at the 9.99 price point like you said. eventually titles will hit 9.99 and below.. and yes PSPs are flying off the shelves at 250 and maybe thats the best price for it to be at the moment.
HeadRusch
CAGiversary!
Nintendos $150 dollar "system and a game" promotion wont sway anyone away from a PSP.......it will only get people who have wanted a DS in the first place a little more reason to spend $150 bucks on one.
Nobody is going to say "Oh screw the PSP, I'm getting that awesome DS instead cuz I get a free game!!!!".
Nobody is going to say "Oh screw the PSP, I'm getting that awesome DS instead cuz I get a free game!!!!".
Parathod
CAGiversary!
[quote name='javeryh']I love my PSP. It's hard for me to imagine getting a DS now although I probably will once there is a game or two worth playing (new SMB and Zelda come to mind). Once games like Burnout, GTA, Prince of Persia, Daxter and others start coming out I think sales will see a spike. We are still in the first few months of launch and if I remember correctly the DS didn't have much to talk about during the same time period. $250 is pretty reasonable for what amounts to a handheld PS2. In the grand scheme of things it's really not that much money and I imagine most people who want one will get one eventually.[/QUOTE]
You have to keep in mind that even if these are system sellers here (which is debatable), that there isn't much appeal for the Japanese gamer until Final Fantasy (or GT4: Mobile) is released in what will be 2006 at the earliest. $250 isn't a lot (despite the fact that we are leaving out acc. and games) , but I don't think that consumers will be willing to put out that much in the same year they buy their Xbox360 and PS3. I know they're taking a loss on each one made, but I personally think they'd benefit from a price drop.
As for the Ipod argument: The PSP sales have been dropping, not rising (in both J and NA), so perhaps it doesn't follow the "premium product" model that you made up in this thread.
You have to keep in mind that even if these are system sellers here (which is debatable), that there isn't much appeal for the Japanese gamer until Final Fantasy (or GT4: Mobile) is released in what will be 2006 at the earliest. $250 isn't a lot (despite the fact that we are leaving out acc. and games) , but I don't think that consumers will be willing to put out that much in the same year they buy their Xbox360 and PS3. I know they're taking a loss on each one made, but I personally think they'd benefit from a price drop.
As for the Ipod argument: The PSP sales have been dropping, not rising (in both J and NA), so perhaps it doesn't follow the "premium product" model that you made up in this thread.
quate from www.sonypspworld.com
Sony PSP Price Reduction in US
Sony intends to lower the price of the Sony PSP in the US from $250 down to $200. The cheaper price is due to the removal of the 'Value' items. Meaning, the new package will only include the unit itself as opposed to the Value pack which includes the unit, memory stick, protective case and hand strap.
Sony PSP Price Reduction in US
Sony intends to lower the price of the Sony PSP in the US from $250 down to $200. The cheaper price is due to the removal of the 'Value' items. Meaning, the new package will only include the unit itself as opposed to the Value pack which includes the unit, memory stick, protective case and hand strap.
Rabid Mammal Wax
CAGiversary!
[quote name='BADAIM']quate from www.sonypspworld.com
Sony PSP Price Reduction in US
Sony intends to lower the price of the Sony PSP in the US from $250 down to $200. The cheaper price is due to the removal of the 'Value' items. Meaning, the new package will only include the unit itself as opposed to the Value pack which includes the unit, memory stick, protective case and hand strap.[/QUOTE]
When will this happen?
Sony PSP Price Reduction in US
Sony intends to lower the price of the Sony PSP in the US from $250 down to $200. The cheaper price is due to the removal of the 'Value' items. Meaning, the new package will only include the unit itself as opposed to the Value pack which includes the unit, memory stick, protective case and hand strap.[/QUOTE]
When will this happen?
[quote name='BADAIM']quate from www.sonypspworld.com
Sony PSP Price Reduction in US
Sony intends to lower the price of the Sony PSP in the US from $250 down to $200. The cheaper price is due to the removal of the 'Value' items. Meaning, the new package will only include the unit itself as opposed to the Value pack which includes the unit, memory stick, protective case and hand strap.[/QUOTE]
Follow the "Source" trail. sonypspworld credits the story to gamefront, a German site, who credits the story to PunchJump, which says "Sony may send $199 PSP to U.S. retail," and they're basing it on the fact that accessories are available separately, which really doesn't mean anything unfortunately. So that story is basically the result of a mistranslation somewhere.
Sony PSP Price Reduction in US
Sony intends to lower the price of the Sony PSP in the US from $250 down to $200. The cheaper price is due to the removal of the 'Value' items. Meaning, the new package will only include the unit itself as opposed to the Value pack which includes the unit, memory stick, protective case and hand strap.[/QUOTE]
Follow the "Source" trail. sonypspworld credits the story to gamefront, a German site, who credits the story to PunchJump, which says "Sony may send $199 PSP to U.S. retail," and they're basing it on the fact that accessories are available separately, which really doesn't mean anything unfortunately. So that story is basically the result of a mistranslation somewhere.
[quote name='jkam']Alright I guess I did go over the edge a bit with that last post. You did however admit it comes down to sales. So let's just say that the DS comes out with 3 new games that start selling DS systems like WILDFIRE, way more than the PSP for say 6 months....wouldn't that cause Sony a little bit of alarm? Wouldn't they need to do something in order to compete? Even though they are on seperate levels they are still a piece of the overall portable gaming pie.
I understand they are different systems but I still believe that if the DS outsold the PSP in large numbers it would have to affect the PSP's price.[/QUOTE]
(Sorry this reply has taken so long. Despite knowing what I wanted to say almost immediately I found myself blocked for days from getting it written out.)
Recall the Neo-Geo console? This was a previous bid to set a new performance and price point combination for an established gaming platform category. There was nothing remarkable about the hardware. It was in many ways a Sega Genesis on steroids. M68000 CPU, Z80 audio controller, and a dedicated video processor for sprites and such. Most of the system's strength was in that last item. The two off the shelf processors were just higher speed versions of those in the Genesis. The color palette and register depth was a lot deeper, which made for a lot more cost back then but trivial by today's standards. As much of the system's oomph came from using massively larger amounts of ROM than typical home games.
The machine delivered the arcade experience without the compromises of other consoles but at a steep price. $600 for the hardware and $200 or worse for the games. SNK gave themselves a very healthy profit margin on the hardware but the games actually carried a proportionately lower margin than SNES titles like Streetfighter II at $80 when it was the first 16 Mb cart for that system. (There was a reason for this I'll get to later.)
By and large the Neo-Geo wasn't a huge success. It had virtually no third party support. Just a small array of second party suppliers to the arcade business doing the miniscule work needed to produce home versions. since the home versions were about 98% the same code it didn't take much to do that. SNK's own library had a severe lack of genre diversity. And there was the price. This was not only beyond the means of all but the wealthiest or determined kids, it was completely out of bounds for most gaming adults. Nonetheless, it was understood that nothing else out there came closer to the quality delivered by the Neo-Geo. Nothing that happened in the SNES and Genesis world in terms of price of software had any significance on the Neo-Geo's value. Even versions of Neo-Geo arcade hits like Fatal Fury and Samurai Shodown produced for the Nintendo and Sega machines, while often good taken on their own, were pale shadows of what the Ferarri of ROM cart consoles offered. A similar disparity could be readily seen in any game produced for both PSP and DS if both version push their platforms hard. No matter how good the DS it is going to be far short of the PSP's display and ability to drive that display. In the same respect, a game perfectly suited for the touchscreen is going to lose a lot in a PSP version, much like the common complaints regarding console FPS games without mouse support for aiming.
A $100 SNES had hardly any greater effect on the Neo-Geo's sales than it did at $200. For people who regarded the NG price as beyond an impassable border it just didn't matter, while those who considered the NG worth the price could likely afford as many of the less expensive systems as suited their tastes as well. Unless they were well to do but having limited time for playing and placing the NG's quality over the competition's diversity.
The Neo-Geo had a secret. Long ago, I was researching an article in pursuit of getting a fulltime job with a game magazine that was published very close by to where I was then living. (In retrospect I was glad I didn't get the job since the entire business was incredibly corrupt and left many embittered former employees.) The N64 was the biggest gossip tem of the moment and nintendo had announced they were staying with ROM carts and raising concerns about cost and capacity. I was looking to do some background on the costs and since SNK's US HQ was within a two hour drive I was able to line up an interview with a marketing VP. He was a little surprised at my line of questioning and said nobody had ever asked about this stuff before. It turned out the Neo-Geo as a home console was never intended to be anything other than a niche business. What it did was allow SNK to redice cost with higher purchasing volumes and reduce the per location costs of their arcade products. The $5,000 arcade machine and the home machine had nearly all of the same semiconductor elements in common, with the arcade machine board connecting to a daughter board to handle multiple cartridges and also connecting to the coin catcher.
Ordering chips in lots of 50,000 instead of 5,000 made for a much better price, especially on the custom video processor that had no market beyond SNK's applications. Likewise for the cost of developing games. In the normal process, the creators of home versions of arcade titles are starting from scratch with nothing more than the design and art assets. In some cases access to the arcade source code can be useful but the hardware involved at both ends is often so radically different as to make it pointless to under the hood of how the arcade machine performed its task. At best, if a clever algorithm played a major role in the arcade game the company may document that for those handling the port. For SNK and its second party suppliers it was a different story. The home platform was the same hardware as the arcade. The difference between the arcade ROM board and the home version could be just one chip out of 16 containing the sole code that was different between the two. Thus the cost of a game could be spread out over many times greater units than a typical arcade game. Since the home versions were so expensive it had little impact on the value of the arcade machines.
SNK did make a half-hearted attempt to make a more accessable console using CD-ROM but by that point 3D was getting to be a critical feature, the difference in power over newer console was far less, and the narrow range of game genres became a bigger handicap when trying to play in the mainstream. But it was a great scheme while it lasted. SNK was able to grab a good chunk of business in a market dominated by much, much larger companies.
The PSP is a more conventional platform bid but it has much in common with the status the Neo-Geo once enjoyed. Nothing else in the market is offering a comparable experience. The price premium for hardware and software is far less in this case but it remains that Sony has sat itself on a set of scales. On one side is the attraction of a product that is a major jump in capability over everything else in the market and on the other platter is the cost of this product. Sony hopes to keep adding weight to the former and tip things in that direction. Every time they can get a major new title like a GTA (provided it is seen as a new and good addition to the franchise and not as a repackaging of what has gone before) out that adds a few onces to the favorable side of the scale. When that game sells well it not only brings the installed base closer to profitability it also brings in a lot of new sales among those waiting for a killer app. If Nintendo drops the DS price to $129 it puts some weight on the bad side of the scales but not nearly as much. It doesn't change the PSP's position of power for those attracted tot hat. At worst, like those Neo-Geo owners, it adds to the probability a PSP owner will also buy a DS and have their handheld software spending diluted from being entirely PSP oriented. (Would anyone be surprised to find out a majority of PSP owners are also DS buyers.)
It's a running battle. When Sony offers a bunch of early titles as $20 GH versions that brings in a bunch of new hardware purcahses and sells a bunch to the existing base. That has been a major part of Playstation 1/2 success and should pay off for the PSP. (ROM based systems cannot match this without waiting for for major price drops in the cost of mask ROMs.) OTOH, someone new could jump into the handheld business with something that has comparable power but a more conservative design and a lower price point. It would be difficult to keep such a project secret and Sony would have plenty of time to devise their strategy before the product actually launched. Given enough time that strategy might even include a price cut but a strong software library, which is already a top ranking need, would probably be the foremost item with the addition of more funding for exclusives. Without a comparable platform vying for the same titles it doesn't matter but when that machine appears, if ever, it's time to start flashing the cash.
I've had to do without my consoles for several months due to moving into much smaller housing. The GBA and DS have been good to have but the recent addition of PSP has really made a difference. I don't feel quite as deprived when using the PSP. Given a bigger library and the eventual lower prices on older titles I might not miss my consoles at all. Even the TurboExpress never achieved that for me.
I understand they are different systems but I still believe that if the DS outsold the PSP in large numbers it would have to affect the PSP's price.[/QUOTE]
(Sorry this reply has taken so long. Despite knowing what I wanted to say almost immediately I found myself blocked for days from getting it written out.)
Recall the Neo-Geo console? This was a previous bid to set a new performance and price point combination for an established gaming platform category. There was nothing remarkable about the hardware. It was in many ways a Sega Genesis on steroids. M68000 CPU, Z80 audio controller, and a dedicated video processor for sprites and such. Most of the system's strength was in that last item. The two off the shelf processors were just higher speed versions of those in the Genesis. The color palette and register depth was a lot deeper, which made for a lot more cost back then but trivial by today's standards. As much of the system's oomph came from using massively larger amounts of ROM than typical home games.
The machine delivered the arcade experience without the compromises of other consoles but at a steep price. $600 for the hardware and $200 or worse for the games. SNK gave themselves a very healthy profit margin on the hardware but the games actually carried a proportionately lower margin than SNES titles like Streetfighter II at $80 when it was the first 16 Mb cart for that system. (There was a reason for this I'll get to later.)
By and large the Neo-Geo wasn't a huge success. It had virtually no third party support. Just a small array of second party suppliers to the arcade business doing the miniscule work needed to produce home versions. since the home versions were about 98% the same code it didn't take much to do that. SNK's own library had a severe lack of genre diversity. And there was the price. This was not only beyond the means of all but the wealthiest or determined kids, it was completely out of bounds for most gaming adults. Nonetheless, it was understood that nothing else out there came closer to the quality delivered by the Neo-Geo. Nothing that happened in the SNES and Genesis world in terms of price of software had any significance on the Neo-Geo's value. Even versions of Neo-Geo arcade hits like Fatal Fury and Samurai Shodown produced for the Nintendo and Sega machines, while often good taken on their own, were pale shadows of what the Ferarri of ROM cart consoles offered. A similar disparity could be readily seen in any game produced for both PSP and DS if both version push their platforms hard. No matter how good the DS it is going to be far short of the PSP's display and ability to drive that display. In the same respect, a game perfectly suited for the touchscreen is going to lose a lot in a PSP version, much like the common complaints regarding console FPS games without mouse support for aiming.
A $100 SNES had hardly any greater effect on the Neo-Geo's sales than it did at $200. For people who regarded the NG price as beyond an impassable border it just didn't matter, while those who considered the NG worth the price could likely afford as many of the less expensive systems as suited their tastes as well. Unless they were well to do but having limited time for playing and placing the NG's quality over the competition's diversity.
The Neo-Geo had a secret. Long ago, I was researching an article in pursuit of getting a fulltime job with a game magazine that was published very close by to where I was then living. (In retrospect I was glad I didn't get the job since the entire business was incredibly corrupt and left many embittered former employees.) The N64 was the biggest gossip tem of the moment and nintendo had announced they were staying with ROM carts and raising concerns about cost and capacity. I was looking to do some background on the costs and since SNK's US HQ was within a two hour drive I was able to line up an interview with a marketing VP. He was a little surprised at my line of questioning and said nobody had ever asked about this stuff before. It turned out the Neo-Geo as a home console was never intended to be anything other than a niche business. What it did was allow SNK to redice cost with higher purchasing volumes and reduce the per location costs of their arcade products. The $5,000 arcade machine and the home machine had nearly all of the same semiconductor elements in common, with the arcade machine board connecting to a daughter board to handle multiple cartridges and also connecting to the coin catcher.
Ordering chips in lots of 50,000 instead of 5,000 made for a much better price, especially on the custom video processor that had no market beyond SNK's applications. Likewise for the cost of developing games. In the normal process, the creators of home versions of arcade titles are starting from scratch with nothing more than the design and art assets. In some cases access to the arcade source code can be useful but the hardware involved at both ends is often so radically different as to make it pointless to under the hood of how the arcade machine performed its task. At best, if a clever algorithm played a major role in the arcade game the company may document that for those handling the port. For SNK and its second party suppliers it was a different story. The home platform was the same hardware as the arcade. The difference between the arcade ROM board and the home version could be just one chip out of 16 containing the sole code that was different between the two. Thus the cost of a game could be spread out over many times greater units than a typical arcade game. Since the home versions were so expensive it had little impact on the value of the arcade machines.
SNK did make a half-hearted attempt to make a more accessable console using CD-ROM but by that point 3D was getting to be a critical feature, the difference in power over newer console was far less, and the narrow range of game genres became a bigger handicap when trying to play in the mainstream. But it was a great scheme while it lasted. SNK was able to grab a good chunk of business in a market dominated by much, much larger companies.
The PSP is a more conventional platform bid but it has much in common with the status the Neo-Geo once enjoyed. Nothing else in the market is offering a comparable experience. The price premium for hardware and software is far less in this case but it remains that Sony has sat itself on a set of scales. On one side is the attraction of a product that is a major jump in capability over everything else in the market and on the other platter is the cost of this product. Sony hopes to keep adding weight to the former and tip things in that direction. Every time they can get a major new title like a GTA (provided it is seen as a new and good addition to the franchise and not as a repackaging of what has gone before) out that adds a few onces to the favorable side of the scale. When that game sells well it not only brings the installed base closer to profitability it also brings in a lot of new sales among those waiting for a killer app. If Nintendo drops the DS price to $129 it puts some weight on the bad side of the scales but not nearly as much. It doesn't change the PSP's position of power for those attracted tot hat. At worst, like those Neo-Geo owners, it adds to the probability a PSP owner will also buy a DS and have their handheld software spending diluted from being entirely PSP oriented. (Would anyone be surprised to find out a majority of PSP owners are also DS buyers.)
It's a running battle. When Sony offers a bunch of early titles as $20 GH versions that brings in a bunch of new hardware purcahses and sells a bunch to the existing base. That has been a major part of Playstation 1/2 success and should pay off for the PSP. (ROM based systems cannot match this without waiting for for major price drops in the cost of mask ROMs.) OTOH, someone new could jump into the handheld business with something that has comparable power but a more conservative design and a lower price point. It would be difficult to keep such a project secret and Sony would have plenty of time to devise their strategy before the product actually launched. Given enough time that strategy might even include a price cut but a strong software library, which is already a top ranking need, would probably be the foremost item with the addition of more funding for exclusives. Without a comparable platform vying for the same titles it doesn't matter but when that machine appears, if ever, it's time to start flashing the cash.
I've had to do without my consoles for several months due to moving into much smaller housing. The GBA and DS have been good to have but the recent addition of PSP has really made a difference. I don't feel quite as deprived when using the PSP. Given a bigger library and the eventual lower prices on older titles I might not miss my consoles at all. Even the TurboExpress never achieved that for me.
[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']How would it still sell "very well"? I would guess that a good majority of people who wanted it at $250 bought it at $250. If $250 is too seems too expensive for a system now, why wouldn't it in a year or two?[/QUOTE]
exactally!! I will be waiting untill it drops in price. If i really wanted it i would have bought it at 250$ when it came out, whats going to cuase me to buy it at the same price in a few years?
exactally!! I will be waiting untill it drops in price. If i really wanted it i would have bought it at 250$ when it came out, whats going to cuase me to buy it at the same price in a few years?
[quote name='rodeojones903']Thats like saying apple wont sell any more Ipods because they havent/are not going to drop the price.[/QUOTE]
GOD DAMMIT DUDE! If a better Mp3 player comes out and its cheaper and IPODS sales stop the price WILL drop. Ipods sales are so strong that it would be pointless to drop the price. You should just stop posting in this thread becuase your posts are as well thought out as the pet rock.
GOD DAMMIT DUDE! If a better Mp3 player comes out and its cheaper and IPODS sales stop the price WILL drop. Ipods sales are so strong that it would be pointless to drop the price. You should just stop posting in this thread becuase your posts are as well thought out as the pet rock.
opportunity777
CAGiversary!
- Feedback
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I don't know where Sony's PR dept. comes from, but I can say that everything they do these days seems to distance consumers from them. I don't know maybe there's some secret "Evil Empire" strategy that appeals to people, but it certainly doesn't appeal to me.
HeadRusch
CAGiversary!
I agree with EPOBIRS......several nights in a row now I've opted to not fire up my xbox or PS2 and instead just crash out in bed and play..what turns out to be...2-4 hours of Ridge Racer or NFS:Rivals....I dont feel like I'm having to settle for some shallow portable game.
Dante Devil
CAGiversary!
- Feedback
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I think it will sell moderately well. First, its a gadget and everyone loves gadgets. Second, moms and dads will pay just about anything for junior. The PS2 started off with a high pricepoint, but sold extremely well. That's my two cents.
[quote name='HeadRusch']Nintendos $150 dollar "system and a game" promotion wont sway anyone away from a PSP.......it will only get people who have wanted a DS in the first place a little more reason to spend $150 bucks on one.
Nobody is going to say "Oh screw the PSP, I'm getting that awesome DS instead cuz I get a free game!!!!".[/QUOTE]
Have you ever worked in retail? That is EXACTLY how it is.
Now if your an adult, maybe not. But if your a parent or a kid (and atleast in my 3+ years in Videogame retail thats really the case with the DS promotion), they will get whats A. Cheaper B. Free stuff. If a kid comes in with $300, you think he is gonna get the PSP and 1 game? Or is he going to get the DS with Mario for free, and 4-5 games (hell, maybe more)?. Hes going to go for the DS.
I remember all the great Holiday Xbox bundles. By Microsoft just including 2 free 'decent' games, they managed to sell WAY more Xboxs. Often customers would come in planning on getting a PS2, but when they saw Xbox has 2 free games, and won't need a memory card, they were sold.
I truley expect most stores to be sold out of DS' this week if they give Mario 64 away (retail copys). Otherwise, bundles (Mario 64 packed inside) will be sold out completly.
Nobody is going to say "Oh screw the PSP, I'm getting that awesome DS instead cuz I get a free game!!!!".[/QUOTE]
Have you ever worked in retail? That is EXACTLY how it is.
Now if your an adult, maybe not. But if your a parent or a kid (and atleast in my 3+ years in Videogame retail thats really the case with the DS promotion), they will get whats A. Cheaper B. Free stuff. If a kid comes in with $300, you think he is gonna get the PSP and 1 game? Or is he going to get the DS with Mario for free, and 4-5 games (hell, maybe more)?. Hes going to go for the DS.
I remember all the great Holiday Xbox bundles. By Microsoft just including 2 free 'decent' games, they managed to sell WAY more Xboxs. Often customers would come in planning on getting a PS2, but when they saw Xbox has 2 free games, and won't need a memory card, they were sold.
I truley expect most stores to be sold out of DS' this week if they give Mario 64 away (retail copys). Otherwise, bundles (Mario 64 packed inside) will be sold out completly.
[quote name='Dante Devil']I think it will sell moderately well. First, its a gadget and everyone loves gadgets. Second, moms and dads will pay just about anything for junior. The PS2 started off with a high pricepoint, but sold extremely well. That's my two cents.[/QUOTE]
PS2 is a console. Its attached to your TV, and will rarley move. Mom and Dads may not want to spend $250 for a small handheld system that can get stolen at school, or easily broken.
PS2 is a console. Its attached to your TV, and will rarley move. Mom and Dads may not want to spend $250 for a small handheld system that can get stolen at school, or easily broken.
opportunity777
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[quote name='gizmogc']Have you ever worked in retail? That is EXACTLY how it is.
Now if your an adult, maybe not. But if your a parent or a kid (and atleast in my 3+ years in Videogame retail thats really the case with the DS promotion), they will get whats A. Cheaper B. Free stuff. If a kid comes in with $300, you think he is gonna get the PSP and 1 game? Or is he going to get the DS with Mario for free, and 4-5 games (hell, maybe more)?. Hes going to go for the DS.
I remember all the great Holiday Xbox bundles. By Microsoft just including 2 free 'decent' games, they managed to sell WAY more Xboxs. Often customers would come in planning on getting a PS2, but when they saw Xbox has 2 free games, and won't need a memory card, they were sold.
I truley expect most stores to be sold out of DS' this week if they give Mario 64 away (retail copys). Otherwise, bundles (Mario 64 packed inside) will be sold out completly.[/QUOTE]
I'm around people with kids all the time at work and because my siblings all have at least one kid, and this holds true for the most part. The free game + lower price point really do it for a lot of people. I never worked in retail myself, but I can tell you I used to run some of the #'s for a retailer and you can see similar trends to what gizmogc was saying.
Now if your an adult, maybe not. But if your a parent or a kid (and atleast in my 3+ years in Videogame retail thats really the case with the DS promotion), they will get whats A. Cheaper B. Free stuff. If a kid comes in with $300, you think he is gonna get the PSP and 1 game? Or is he going to get the DS with Mario for free, and 4-5 games (hell, maybe more)?. Hes going to go for the DS.
I remember all the great Holiday Xbox bundles. By Microsoft just including 2 free 'decent' games, they managed to sell WAY more Xboxs. Often customers would come in planning on getting a PS2, but when they saw Xbox has 2 free games, and won't need a memory card, they were sold.
I truley expect most stores to be sold out of DS' this week if they give Mario 64 away (retail copys). Otherwise, bundles (Mario 64 packed inside) will be sold out completly.[/QUOTE]
I'm around people with kids all the time at work and because my siblings all have at least one kid, and this holds true for the most part. The free game + lower price point really do it for a lot of people. I never worked in retail myself, but I can tell you I used to run some of the #'s for a retailer and you can see similar trends to what gizmogc was saying.
Demolition Man
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[quote name='rodeojones903']Uhmmm no. No price drops mean less sales from us at CAG. We are a tiny percentage of the video game market. Its still going to sell very well.[/QUOTE]
Joe Sixpack certainly isn't buying into a $250 portable gaming system either... outside of the launch (as diehard gamers will buy it no matter what), sales haven't been the most steller.
Give Sony a year and they'll drop it. Trust me on that.
Joe Sixpack certainly isn't buying into a $250 portable gaming system either... outside of the launch (as diehard gamers will buy it no matter what), sales haven't been the most steller.
Give Sony a year and they'll drop it. Trust me on that.
craven_fiend
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[quote name='demomanTNA']Joe Sixpack certainly isn't buying into a $250 portable gaming system either... outside of the launch (as diehard gamers will buy it no matter what), sales haven't been the most steller.
Give Sony a year and they'll drop it. Trust me on that.[/QUOTE]
And I will be there once it drops to finally pick one up....hopefully.
Give Sony a year and they'll drop it. Trust me on that.[/QUOTE]
And I will be there once it drops to finally pick one up....hopefully.
HeadRusch
CAGiversary!
Last time I worked retail the a 386sx 16Mhz system cost $2 grand, VGA graphics were just starting to emerge, Windows was at version 2.0 and Genesis and SNES were just about to debut and turn the game world on its ear...
So I guess i'll have to trust you on the sales figures.....
I just dont see alot of parents buying DS or PSP for their kids...a $50 dollar gameboy that can be thrown in a backpack and take some abuse is one thing, but a $250 item that is easily broken isn't going to find its way into the hands of young kids unless they are REALLY responsible.....so that was my ponit.
I figure by now only adults (or any kid over the age of 14 lets say, who knows not to put a DS in their bookbag and then bash someone with it on the bus) are really intersted in buying the higher-end handhelds...
Of course...who knows what the 7th graders are carrying around in their backpacks these days...besides knives and guns anyhow
So I guess i'll have to trust you on the sales figures.....
I just dont see alot of parents buying DS or PSP for their kids...a $50 dollar gameboy that can be thrown in a backpack and take some abuse is one thing, but a $250 item that is easily broken isn't going to find its way into the hands of young kids unless they are REALLY responsible.....so that was my ponit.
I figure by now only adults (or any kid over the age of 14 lets say, who knows not to put a DS in their bookbag and then bash someone with it on the bus) are really intersted in buying the higher-end handhelds...
Of course...who knows what the 7th graders are carrying around in their backpacks these days...besides knives and guns anyhow
bread's done