Paul Heyman on Stephanie, The Vince McMahon conspiracy, TNA, and Ring of Honor.
Hello again Paul. The thing that surprised most people about our first interview was how warmly you described your relationship with Stephanie McMahon. There used to always be constant stories of rows, so did you grow to like each other over time or were those just rumours?
They weren't rumours, Stephanie and I clashed heavily through most of my tenure in WWE.
And I don't think it should be a surprise that we did. I came into WWE just as Stephanie was taking over the writing team.
Stephanie is a lot like her father. Even those closest to her would refer to her as The Vincess. And they said it in a manner that cannot be mistaken — they mean it as the ultimate compliment.
She has that drive, she has that ambition and she craves doing the job. Stephanie wakes up in the morning motivated to already be at the second item of the day on her yellow notepad.
Steph competes with herself to be better at her job tomorrow than she is today, and better two days from now than she is tomorrow.
This is an inspired person in terms of getting work done. If you don't admire their work ethic, that intensity of passion to make it all happen, then you're clearly missing something.
Stephanie was put in the position by her father that she had to prove to him every day that she could lead and manage people as he does. She had to show Vince that a group of people could be placed under her umbrella and be brought forward with her vision.
So along comes Heyman. Fresh out of his own promotion, a seven-year adventure that was like a rollercoaster with the blindfolds on.
It's pre-determined that we're going clash. And that's a test for Stephanie because her father has had to deal with strong personalities — be it his own dad, competing promoters or wrestlers from Bruno Sammartino to Steve Austin — it's just part of owning a company.
I faced that when I had my own company. So I do understand it from their perspective.
But by the end of my time in WWE, I can only say that she was quite supportive and would not accept my resignation on several occasions, and seriously tried to help the situation.
Do you not think that by the end Stephanie could just sense you had given up and wanted to make peace with you?
It doesn't matter to Stephanie whether she's at peace with you or at odds with you.
She has her father's ruthlessness and that's a very necessary component to taking over the company that she may one day inherit.
Stephanie wouldn't think twice about making peace with me if it's good for business. And she wouldn't think twice about slashing my throat if it's good for business either.
That is interesting — so you think Stephanie will take over the WWE from Vince rather than her brother Shane?
I have my own conspiracy theory on this and I know some people won't take it seriously because sometimes I don't take it seriously. But then, other times, I'm convinced that it's very accurate.
Oh boy, here we go. I'm sure this is going to p*** everybody off.
The theory is that Vince envisions himself running WWE well into his 90s, bypassing the Stephanie/Shane generation and going forward with the succession to Shane's sons because then it's a McMahon running the company.
Stephanie, who is far more publicly visible than her brother, has the boost of running the creative and talent ends, which is what most of the public sees. Stephanie will drive the product.
Shane, who has made and cultivated and nurtured new business relationships and explored new mediums and platforms and applications, grooms the next generation.
It's the same deal that is going on right now with The Royal Family — The Queen is staying alive so Prince Charles doesn't get the throne!
Vince has taken note of this exceptional Machiavellian play and has incorporated it into his own life.
Although you're not with the WWE, do you still watch the product?
Of course I still watch it. I'm still a big fan and I still appreciate the art form. I still get goosebumps seeing the live reaction when it hits.
I never lost a love for the business, it's just that my time in it is up.
I lived out every dream I could have possibly imagined about the wrestling industry when I was a kid. I had a blast and loved every minute, even the bad ones. Well, most of the bad ones. But I have other dreams, too, and I feel a need to pursue them.
As for the product, I think WWE is a fantastic company whose stock is undervalued.
They lost their biggest cash cow, John Cena, and still turned in a fourth quarter that was so profitable it exceeded Wall Street's wildest expectations.
This is a corporation that knows how to maximise assets.
The product is what we as fans put all of our passion into, and discuss and debate, but it's a business. And as a business it's the dominant brand with a market share that is mind-boggling.
But the money-making aside, what do you think of Raw, Smackdown and ECW? What makes you scream and shout, in good or bad ways, when you're watching WWE TV?
I don't get emotionally involved like that any more because I lost enough hair and gained enough weight worrying about these things when I was working there.
So now, I can just sit back and enjoy it for what it is — and that is the public vehicle given to the networks to sell ad time for a thriving corporation, designed in part to satisfy the network's criteria for paying the license fees, coupled with the need to promote, promote, promote.
From a business model perspective, Vince McMahon's theory and implementation of television is a fascinating study.
You talked about WWE being the dominant brand earlier — do you think rival American wrestling group TNA could ever challenge that?
I think TNA has a major hurdle to overcome — and that's the fact that they have no BRAND. There's no one on that roster that is branded TNA.
You look at Kurt Angle and you think WWE. You look at Booker T and think WCW, five-time, five-time, five-time or King Booker in WWE. You look at The Dudleys and think ECW or WWE or even tables.
You look at Samoa Joe, who should be the TNA guy, and you think this guy's great, when's he going to WWE.
Are there hot moments? Sure. Are there personalities to like? Sure. Is there a good work rate? Sure. But there is no TNA style, TNA persona or TNA brand.
They had an opportunity to do this with the X Division, which is a totally unique concept you don't see anywhere else in wrestling, MMA or sports entertainment.
That could have been their version of what UFC did with the Octagon but they diminished the effectiveness of their own creation.
They had a totally different and unique look and presentation, and then tossed it aside like it was just another gimmick.
For the life of me I can't understand why.
But surely TNA have a six-sided ring, a women's division that's becoming the best the US has ever produced, Kurt Angle praising TNA at every opportunity and lots of homegrown talent like Joe, AJ Styles, Kaz and Robert Roode?
I don't think the problem is in the talent, it's in the
BRANDING of that talent. If you walked Angle through the airport, nobody would say: "There's that guy from TNA."
Nobody equates Angle, or anybody in that company, to TNA. As a company, they desperately need to address that.
For example, their women's division is attracting attention right now, there's some real momentum behind it. So why isn't Kong on television saying: "My name is Awesome Kong, I AM TNA and here's why."
Then you have ODB, and she says: "I'm ODB and I AM TNA and here's why." Then Gail Kim is doing a promo and she says: "No, I'M TNA and here's why."
TNA is WWE-Lite. Their TV show is the same thing as ECW's TV show. Their six-sided ring is the same as a four-sided ring.
There is nothing that is enough of a difference maker in the audience's mind that makes me as a fan say I'm watching an alternative, a different style, a different product and most importantly, a different brand.
They have a product that is clearly using the WWE formula with lighting that is less spectacular than Vince's.
If I was running TNA, or any wrestling company for that matter, as soon as I heard Paul Heyman was a free agent I would have picked up that phone. So have you thought about going there?
I have no interest in TNA.
They don't want someone to come in and completely change their formula. I don't even think they want to hear that their formula is in need of changing. They have a strong comfort level, thanks to the television contract with Spike in America and what looks like the stopping of their heavy financial bleeding.
TNA is a vanity piece and they don't want someone who comes in and says: "We really have to address all these situations."
The offer that Stephanie gave me to work with all the WWE's developmental talent would be one I would be very inclined to take, if I had any interest in staying in the wrestling business.
But now I want to pursue these other dreams and challenge myself to do other things creatively.
I would see TNA as a step down. It's a viable place to work, but I'm not interested in just doing a job. I want to be intellectually, spiritually and creatively stimulated and challenged. I want to create and participate in a vibrant creative atmosphere.
Bluntly, I don't see that as being part of what they could offer.
Surely there's a part of you that wants to go to TNA, use their talent and money, thrash ECW in the ratings and really stick it to Vince?
I'm not looking to stick it to Vince.
There's a lot of people who have wasted their lives saying: "I'm going to get Vince McMahon. Watch this — I'm going to say that he's a no good f***ing a**hole."
And while they're saying that, he's flying 40,000 feet up in the air back to Connecticut on his $80million private plane.
Hey, you really got him with that one guys! That's a sucker's move. I'm not obsessed with Vince McMahon.
There is an often forgotten third company in America, Ring Of Honor, run by an old protege of yours called Gabe Sapolsky. What do you think of the product and Sapolsky as a person?
I am very proud of Gabe. He has learned from all of the strengths of ECW and also our weaknesses.
He's developed a niche audience that is loyal to the Ring Of Honor product. With no resources, Gabe has branded Ring Of Honor far better than the multi-multi-million dollar TNA product.
When you see Ring Of Honor you know what you are watching. When you see a certain style you know it's the ROH style.
On Ring Of Honor's worst day he still delivers more bang for your buck than most people do on their best.
Do I think that ROH will ever be a global corporation? No. It’s not designed to be.
It's designed to be a boutique promotion to cater to a fan that is looking for a certain product. He has cornered that market and done a brilliant job in doing so.
Obviously working for WWE or TNA would be a full-time job. But have you ever thought of going to one of Sapolsky's shows, having a good time and just helping ROH out? He must have asked you?
I don't think I'd be helping Gabe out at all if I showed up. I don't see how I can contribute to what he is doing.
I neither want to be a nostalgia act — which is why I don't go to any conventions or do any shoot tapes, no matter how much they keep offering — nor do I want to be the guy who comes in and upsets the formula that has worked for Gabe and his company just fine.
Paul Heyman in Ring Of Honor doesn't add to Ring Of Honor. There's nothing I can tell his audience that they don't already know.
Gabe doesn't need my endorsement from me, he needs the endorsement of a 16-year-old kid who goes to school on a Monday and tells all of his friends: "Man, I went to a wrestling show this weekend and had the greatest time of my life. They're back next month – let’s all go."
Does he ask you for advice on ROH booking and do you give it?
I don't talk wrestling with Gabe because I don't want to influence his product. His vision works.
Has he ever called me for advice on a finish, character or angle? Sure.
But I'll give him a perspective where he can find his own answer. I don't want to give him the answer because then it's my answer not his.
Everything he does needs to have Gabe Sapolsky's booking DNA all over it. It's not supposed to be my vision. it's supposed to be his.
Talking about your Strike Force quotes in our last interview, Dave Meltzer of the Wrestling Observer reported you were also talking to MMA groups IFL and YAMMA. Is that true?
I met with IFL right before they went on television. They need an executive producer to run their TV shows and bring a vision to the product. Someone thought I was the right guy to speak with about that.
I just didn't understand where they wanted to take their company and what they wanted out of their television show. I didn't have a starting point from which to build.
First of all, to a kid, the cage is The Deal. MMA in a ring, to me, looks like those old boxing films of Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey or Max Bear. The old grainy black-and-white footage that looks like the Stone Age. The ring is yesterday's model.
The Octagon, or even just the cage, is what people view as MMA and that's a credit to the UFC's branding.
On the other hand Bob Meyrowitz, at YAMMA, is coming back to a business that he brought into the public consciousness.
I've met Bob at parties and weddings - we have a lot of mutual friends - and we've had lots of chats about the MMA business.
KISS OF FATE ... first Hustle episode
I'm interested in seeing what he does with YAMMA because doing PPV in today's environment, with no television to back it up or bring it forward, seems like a really tough assignment.
A couple of days before the big Heyman Hustle launch can you tell us a bit about what it will involve?
Well, we had everything planned for the first episode.
We were going to go to the private party for the cast members of the new season of Survivor, when an hour before we were supposed to start shooting we get a message that all media credentials had been cancelled.
Execs didn't want the cast members to be seen in public.
Now, keep in mind, we're on deadline with the first episode and we're on a tight schedule already. No time to arrange something else. No time to even scramble.
This is a total improv situation which, I must confess, is 10 times the adrenalin rush and a much more exhilarating evening of production in the most sensory-heightening part of the greatest city on earth — Times Square, New York City.
One hour to go. What do we do? What the f*** do you think we did?
We did a Hustle.
in $$$$$$s the 
ath of Destruction DVD is up for bid.
