- PART FOUR OF THE SCOTT HALL TORCHTALK INTERVIEW -
Wade Keller: Regarding pushing smaller wrestlers, just as UFC pushes middleweights and light-heavyweights as their draws, it seems there’s a missed opportunity at a time when there’s not a lot of talent out there that’s polished. It seems Vince is writing off half of the guys and never gives them a chance to draw. I mean, look at Rey Mysterio. Look at what was done with him.
Scott Hall: Yeah, but you’re talking about a guy who’s like one in ten million, there, bro. He’s one in ten million. There is only one Rey Mysterio. I have worked with him. I know him. He’s magic.
Keller: Do you think smaller guys could draw, or do you kind of believe in Vince’s formula that you’ve got to turn heads in airports?
Hall: Well, that’s what I always loved about live entertainment. Let the people decide, bro. Put the guy out there. Can he get over, can he not? You know? Put the
in’ Great Khali out there and put
in’ Rey Rey out there and let’s see who pops the people. You know what I’m saying? Let the people decide. A bunch of
in’ nerds who have never had a match sitting around in a board room can’t decide.
Keller: Did you get a chance to follow Kevin Nash’s storyline in TNA with the X Division?
Hall: No, I actually just got a new cable carrier and I didn’t get that channel before. Now I get Spike, so I haven’t been able to see it all.
Keller: Before you met Vince for the first time, what was your preconception of him and did it change at all after you had a chance to meet him face to face?
Hall: I think I blew the interview. I was so nervous, I was so green. Plus, I was a little bit trying to be like I had something to offer. I felt like I did, you know. I’ll never forget the last thing I said to Vince. Blah blah blah, we talked. I said, “Well, hopefully we can make money together.” I shook his hand and I got back in the car. I guess he expected me to be humble-bumble, but I thought, no man,
him. I didn’t say, “
you, Vince.” Don’t get me wrong. But I was thinking, bro, you don’t know me. I’m from the street. I’ll go back to tit bars and sell suntan lotion on weekends. If this works out, great. If it don’t, whatever. But I said that to him and I don’t know, he never called me back until I changed my look. Then they called and called and called.
Keller: What advice would you give to a wrestler who is similar to your position before your first meeting with Vince? How should they approach that interview?
Hall: First of all, times have changed. You ain’t gonna meet Vince. You’re gonna talk to a bunch of jobronis and you’ll probably meet Jim Ross. You probably won’t get to talk to Vince right away unless you’re somebody. Some new guy walking in, you don’t have to worry about meeting Vince. You’re gonna meet Coachman and a bunch of jabronis. You’re going to meet Jim Ross.
Keller: Or probably John Laurenaitis now.
Hall: Oh my god (laughs).
Keller: What’s your opinion on him?
Hall: I think he’s got the whitest teeth I’ve ever come across. Nah, he’s a great guy. He had a great career in Japan. He was sure lucky to have one.
Keller: Were you around him WCW?
Hall: He was the Dynamic Dude. I crossed paths with him in WWE, I think.
Keller: He found his way to power in this country.
Hall: Oh, good for him.
Keller: You worked with Goldust pretty early as Razor Ramon. What was your opinion of being matched up with him at that point?
Hall: Actually, when Vince pitched the Goldust angle to me, he was real conservative back then. They had a violence code. No chairs on TV. You couldn’t say ass. You couldn’t flip a guy off. You couldn’t do any of that shit. Then all of a sudden he calls me into a meeting and he wants to do this homosexual angle. You gotta remember, this is a long time ago. The way the business goes now, I probably should have just gone ahead and did it, right? Plus, see, I had been around three or four years now. I had a little bit of stroke. I remember looking at Vince going, “Vince, let me get this right. We’re doing a gay angle?” I said, “I don’t get it.” Plus, the heat was on (1-2-3) Kid. Kid and Sid had just
ed me out of the belt, and they wanted me to work with Goldust. I said, “I’ll tell ya’ what, Vince. I ain’t comfortable with this gay angle. You want me to drop the belt to Goldust, no problem. I’ll drop it to him, but I ain’t working with him.” That was my downfall with Vince. It was the first time I ever disagreed with Vince. You know, I guess I was immature looking back at it now because as racy as the business is now - what’s the broad, Melina, showing her snatch. I mean, when you watch TV, them bitches, they’re shooting up their dresses. You know what I mean? But back then, it wasn’t that way. Vince prided himself on family programming. He had this dude in love with Razor. I remember going, “Vince, let me get this right. I’m going to tell my five year old son some other man’s in love with me?” I guess I was being a mark. I should have just took it as business, but I was very, very uncomfortable with it.
Keller: Was it ever personal?
Hall: No, no. Nothing against Dustin. I think Dustin is great. He’s a great professional. He did the gimmick great. After me, he took off with that gimmick. He made that shit red hot.
Keller: Once you saw it get red hot, did you look and go, “Maybe that would have worked.”
Hall: Too late by then.
Keller: How about Jeff Jarrett? You worked with him in the first years there too. Did you learn from working with somebody like him?
Hall: Shit, I taught Jeff how to work. Ask Jeff. Ask Jeff. I worked with Jeff his first match in Madison Square Garden. Razor had been in the Garden a few times. I had a ladder match there. I had had some good matches in that town. I’m sure you’re aware of it, but the Garden’s a tough market. It’s a very tough, sophisticated, hip wrestling crowd. I worked with Jeff there and at that time, with Vince preparing for the steroid trial, he brought Jerry Jarrrett - Jeff’s father - in to supervise operations. So I sat down with Jeff and said, “Look, man, you’ve never been here. I’ve been here. They know me. They love me.” I said, “Just beat me up the whole time. Shoot me in, bend over for a backdrop, and I’ll pick you up and hit you with my finish, 1, 2, 3.” I did it. People popped. Blah blah blah. When I came back to the locker room, his dad pulled me aside. He was spitting dip, chewing tobacco into a coffee cup. He goes, “Hey, Razor, can I talk to you?” I said, “Sure, what’s up?” He goes, “You gave him too much.” This is his own flesh and blood. He said, “The people want to see you make a comeback, then beat him. I’ll never forget looking at Jerry Jarrett and going, “Wow, this guy’s smart. Because he cares more about (the business). That’s his son. I know how much I love my son. But he wanted to do business right. It wouldn’t hurt his son for me to do business right, either, at the same time. But I never forgot that. Me and Jerry Jarrett are pretty good buddies. I like him. He’s smart, man. Real estate. Construction. Wrestling. I mean, he’s made a lot of money in a lot of businesses.
Keller: He’s been around a lot of big stories over the years and a lot of turning points in the business. When Vince was on trial, Jerry Jarrett was there, helping to hold the fort while Vince was occupied.
Hall: He brought Bill Watts in and Watts didn’t want Vince to control him and told him
you. So he got rid of Watts. Watts liked me, too. I remember Watts telling me one time, “You’re over like
. I can’t figure out why they ain’t doin’ nothing with ya’.”
Keller: Do you think Watts could have worked out in the WWF at that point, or was he too old school to work in the corporate environment?
Hall: Not with Vince. If Vince sold the company to Watts, maybe, but not with Vince. Watts is a little bit too country and Vince is a little bit too city, in my humble opinion, and I don’t know either one of them that well. I know Vince. I don’t Watts that well. I heard Watts knows how to do business. I also heard he’s a tough son of a bitch to work for.
Keller: He made quite the Torch Talk. He was very outspoken about a lot of things. He said some racial things that probably shouldn’t have been said, at least not the way he said them. Let’s shift to Shawn Michaels. You had a ladder match that is still talked about today as one of the great matches of the ’90s. How did the concept of doing a ladder match come about? Had you seen it done before?
Hall: Actually, one time me and Shawn, we were wrestling each other for like two-and-a-half years. One night we show up somewhere out West because they were doing this deal - back when they were drug testing us, all of a sudden Shawn turned up dirty for some bullshit. All of sudden Shawn has steroids in him. He’s been clean for three years, and all of a sudden he’s got a pill in him. So they suspend him. They have a battle royal. It comes down to me and Rick Martel. I beat Martel. Now I got the strap. Of course, I’ve never beat Shawn, who I’ve been wrestling for years. So Shawn wears his strap to the ring, I wear mine. It was the only ladder match that ever made sense. So all of a sudden we go out West and I said what the
is a ladder match? So we start having one or two and start figuring out highspots and stuff like that. I was just supposed to wrestle Shawn at WrestleMania 10 in just a regular match. But Jack Lanza told Vince that these guys are rocking this ladder match, so we had a ladder match and things went well.
Keller: Did you know when that match was over that you had just had what would be looked back on as one of the great matches of that era?
Hall: I felt good about it. Actually, I think one time in Fresno we actually had a better one, it just wasn’t on TV. It was sweet. The thing I remember is coming back to the locker room, and Randy Savage going, “First of all, I wanna say, great match. Second of all, I want to say you were selfish mother
ers.”
Keller: Why is that?
Hall: Because, you know our PPV, you only buy so much satellite time. See, the way the ladder match went, once you kind of set in motion, you gotta cross. You can’t edit the time. Once you start to go home, you gotta go home. So what happened was, we cut into his and Crush’s time. What they should have done is just edit that match, but anyway.
Keller: Did we really need a longer match with Crush?
Hall: Yeah, he’s money. So anyway, Mach and Crush went, like, six minutes. They were pissed off. But whatever. What do you do?
Keller: Have you seen many of the ladder matches that have followed over all of these years?
Hall: I had a rematch with Shawn at Summerslam, but that was back when Vince had a violence code. There was a violence code on TV, and I was not allowed to use the ladder as a weapon. Then I worked for Atlanta and I had a ladder match with Goldberg. But Goldberg’s such a pussy, like you can’t hit him with a ladder. He’s such a cunt. He’s all jacked up on
in’ supplements. He’s a puss. As much as I helped him. His first road trip, he rode with me. Free room, free car, all that shit. I introduced him to our agent. Same agent as me, Kev (Nash), a lot of people have. Made him wealthy. And now he just acts like a cock. So,
you Goldberg.
Keller: Have you seen any ladder matches that you haven’t been involved in?
Hall: To be honest with you, bro, I don’t watch a lot of wrestling. Just lately I’ve been watching a lot because Kid called, Kev called. They keep going, “Come on, mother
er, come on. Let’s do it one more time!” I really think the only way DX is going to make any money is if they have opponents.
Keller: They were created to feud with Vince and Shane. I don’t think they created DX as a long-term concept with multiple opponents. It’s a reunion tour, a nostalgia tour.
Hall: But what happens if me and Kev show up with black suits on with like NWO logos on them, like the collar.
Keller: Well, that extends the DX run instantly.
Hall: But I’m saying, now we’re corporate guys. Because Kev’s hair is short. My hair is trimmed. We show up. It’s no secret. Time passes you by. We’re older than we were last year, right? We’re all looking a little bit older. Shawn certainly looks older. We show up because Vince can’t beat them. So who does he bring in? The best tag team in the world, the Outsiders.
Keller: Let’s talk about the Clique a little bit, because you guys ended up forming a powerbase that in some ways was unprecedented. A lot of guys didn’t like you. Bam Bam Bigelow, Jean Pierre Lafitte, Bob Holly, Adam Bomb, Ted DiBiase. They were all outspoken about you behind the scenes. Talk about that.
Hall: It’s kind of hard to talk about without sounding like an egomaniac, but did Adam Bomb ever draw a dime? A Canadian one, I think. Bam Bam, yeah. We had some heat with Bam Bam. Bam Bam was very talented. We had some heat with people, but nobody who mattered. The business was down and we brought it up. We were trying to bring it up. You know how any business runs, bro. You gotta get in your bosses ear and you gotta pitch your ideas. I don’t care if you’re a car salesman or selling fruit on a fruit stand. You gotta get in your boss’s head with your ideas if you want to advance. So we were saying, “How about this? How about that? How about this?” We were the ones pitching the ideas. See, I’m the kind of guy who thrives on a real competitive environment. If you’re better than me, then bring it, bro. If you’re better than me, then step up and talk to Vince. Because, guess what, that’ll make me think harder. A lot of people could have criticized the Clique, but the Clique rules wrestling. I mean, if you look at it back in the day, me, Kev, and Kid were running the NWO and Hunter and Shawn were running DX in WWE. The Clique was running
in’ wrestling.
Keller: Did you guys ever abuse the power that you had? I’ve asked Sean Waltman and Kevin Nash this same question. You guys had influence with Vince. You had more face time with him and considerable influence because you guys were top acts, too. Did you guys ever abuse that power to settle any scores?
Hall: I hope so. I don’t remember, but I hope we did.
Keller: The Clique was based on friendship and a common bond because you guys cares passionately about the industry. You guys were students of the game and went on long road trips and talked about it.
Hall: We were just a bunch of guys who wanted to get over. We all had the same idea in mind. The best way to get over - I learned this from Arn Anderson. One time, a long time ago, Arn Anderson told me - Kid, you wanna get rich in this business - because I used to stand in the curtain and watch the matches - he went, “Kid, come here. You know what the promoter does?” That was like Jim Crockett at the time. He said, “He stands back here and he listens.” It’s all about who makes me yell the loudest and the longest. You know what I mean? It don’t matter armdrag, backflip, moonsault, all that silly shit. Who’s making ‘em yell? I could hit you with a toothpick in the face and people are going to yell. I wrestled so many marks. They’d go, “Man, I don’t want the toothpick in the face.” I said, “Fine, I’ll just punch you then.” You know, would you rather take the toothpick, because people are going to go “Waaaaa!” Or would you rather me pick you up and suplex you?
Keller: Talk about the different roles each of you had in that group. Was one of you more the leader?
Hall: Kev will disagree with this. Kid’s real, real smart. And I like to lay everything out. You see, Kev’s a big grouch. Unless it was Kid, every match that I’ve ever been in, you can research it. If it was me and Kev, I always started. Unless it was the three of us, then Kid started. The way we looked at it, Kid can go. Kid’s gonna wrestle ya’. So you get by Kid, and then welcome to me. I can wrestle a little bit, but I’m a brawler. Then if you get by me,
in’ shit’s on. Here comes the big seven foot grouchy mother
er and he’s gonna beat your ass. We did it that way, but we never had any kind of ego
in’ bullshit problems. It wasn’t about that. We always helped each other, we always loved each other. I think the love overcomes all that. You know, we never cared. All we wanted to hear was, like Arn said, I always wanted to leave there feeling like I had the best match. I always wanted to leave the arena feeling like I had a great match. I wanted the people screamin’. I always felt, as having been a fan, to give the people their money’s worth. I wanted them going, “Holy cow, did you see that?” You know what I mean? That’s always been my commitment.
Keller: At what point did Hunter enter the equation? His lifestyle was very different.
Hall: Well, he came in right before we were leaving. Cause I asked Vince, cause I wanted to work with him. Razor, being this guy from the streets, and Hunter came in with the rich boy gimmick. I said, “Boy, give me him.” He came in right at the end. My last night in the Garden was against him. I was supposed to work with Goldust, but he blew his knee out working with me in Europe, so the main event in the Garden, the largest gate they ever had non-pay-per-view, May 26 was Kev versus Shawn in a cage, then me and Hunter underneath, semi-main. We had two matches before that. Philly, Hershey double-shot. Vince and Pat came to both shows and watched. I’ll never forget, Vince called me in before my match into his office in the Garden. He goes, “Dammit, you still work for me. Them sons of bitches. What can I do?” I said, “Vince, I don’t know if I can talk to you about this, man. I’ve already told Eric Bischoff I’m coming. In good faith, I can’t talk to ya’. I told him I’m coming.” He said, “How much those sons of bitches offering you?” I told him. He went, “Damn! That’s pretty good money.” I said, “Look, Vince, I ain’t asking you to match it. You asked me, I told you.” So, me and Hunter went out there. Then Pat called me aside. Me and Hunter just had been having this regular wrestling match. He ends up beatin’ me.
Pat called me up and said, “Look, this is what we’re going to do.” I want you to get in the ring, do your cha-cha, take your jewelry off. Hunter will already be out there. He’ll attack you from behind, knock you to the floor, choke you with the cord, then leave you laying in the aisleway.” All the fans in Madison Square Garden, it’s the same people over and over and over again. They’ve been going there for years. Those are previous seats. I remember people speaking to me in Spanish. “Look how they treat you, Razor.
them. Go to Atlanta, man. We love you Razor.” Most of the marks thought Razor will not do a job in the Garden. I mean, who would, right? So I’m laying there. So he gets on the mic. He’s real green. He goes, “Ramon, why don’t you go off to wherever it is you’re off to go.” And the people start going, “Razor! Razor!” I just peeled my shit off, slide into the ring, and he feeds me like he’s a
in’ job guy. I mean, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Up and down. I give him the career-ender, the suplex off the top, snatch him up for my finish. Baby Earl, this is how sweet it was, he swung around and as I was flipping him over, Hunter’s feet hit Earl in the head. So Earl went down. Vince had the big ring. So I dropped him in the other corner. So everybody in the building knows. Hunter knows. Earl knows. All the fans know. But I don’t know that the referee is knocked out. So I cover him. The people are counting, “One, two, three, four.” So I go, what the f—, I go grab Earl. I kick him in the ass. What’s your
in’ problem. Get up, get up. I turned around. Bang, Pedigree. One, two, three. I laid there until his music played. He left. The
in’ sweetest part was, before I went out, the people were chanting, “Please don’t go! Please don’t go! Please don’t go!” So when the match was over, I got the mic. The people are going, “You sold out! You sold out! You sold out!” I pointed at Vince. He used to stand outside the Garden. I just pantomimed. I said, “Tell him, give me the money and I’ll stay right here.” So this is one of the biggest moments of my career. I used to always say, “Say hello to the Bad Guy.” I picked up the mic and I went, “Say…” and everybody in that arena went, “Good bye to the Bad Guy!” It was one of those moments. It’s all we got is moments in our life, you know what I mean?
Keller: That had to be somewhat emotional. I don’t know if you felt you owed anything to Vince, but you both made money for each other.
Hall: The thing is, too, bro, I could look Vince in the eye and said, “You know man, I worked my ass off for you. Yeah, yeah. I remember two years in going, “I know how this works, Vince. You keep pointing these cameras at me, and pretty soon we’re partners.” Because I knew I was getting over. I went to him as a man and asked for more money. He wouldn’t give it to me. I said, “Vince, what am I doing wrong? Do my interview need work? Does my ring work need work? Cause I wanna make big money like my predecessors.” He said, “Oh, no, your work is fine.” Blah blah blah. I was thinking, all right.
Keller: You weren’t getting World Title shots or runs with the World Title. Not that you were a mark for the belt, but that symbolically is a reward for what you’ve accomplished when you get that title. Did you get any sense at all that that was in the cards? That’s why Christian left WWE, because Vince outright told him, “I don’t see you as a top guy.” That was the final straw for Christian to jump to TNA. Did you ever get the feeling that Vince saw you as a guy who would be top top?
Hall: I like Christian. I think his interviews are very entertaining. The whole World Title thing, it didn’t bother me. I only wanted the money. When you go to the bank, they don’t go, “Did you win or did you lose?” They just want the money.
Keller: So there was no consideration given to wanting to headline several PPVs in a row as champion, as happened with Kevin, Bret, and Shawn. It really was just money and an opportunity to do you thing that was most important?
Hall: I never really considered myself a mark for the belt, bro. I never really did. I don’t know. To me, it’s always been a business.
Keller: What did you think during that stretch of time about the dynamic between Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels? Do you think Vince played them off of each other? Do you think they naturally were such different people that that led to a lot of the tension backstage?
Hall: I think there was a little bit of a half-shoot going on and Vince capitalized off of it. It got kinda nasty. I don’t care to comment about it. Shawn can be Shawn, and Bret can be Bret. Neither one of them is a day at the beach if you catch them on the wrong day, you know what I mean?
Keller: I know you’re real close with Shawn, and Bret wasn’t you best friend like Shawn was, but do you think they were strong guys to be on top during the time that they were on top? Because they kind of broke the size barrier, too.
Hall:I don’t think there was anybody else. Vince was out of options. He had to put Bret on top. He didn’t have anybody else.
Keller: Shawn really tore the ring up. He had a really nice run as champ in terms of just putting on great matches. That’s when the show-stopper name started.
Hall: Well, he stole that from Yoko(zuna). He rocked it, man.
Keller: How about Undertaker. During your run when you guys were really powerful and really prominent on WWE TV, how did Undertaker as a locker room leader himself, play off of that dynamic he had?
Hall: Taker’s real quiet, man. He don’t say a whole lot.
Keller: Did you guys get along with him just fine?
Hall: I have a lot of respect for him, but like I say, he minds his own business. He handles his business very professionally. He’s not a gossip. He don’t talk no trash. He’s a straight up dude.
Keller: I want to go back to Hunter late in your run there, travelling with you guys on the road. What was it that bonded you guys when Hunter was such a different person than you guys were in terms of how he lived his life on the road? Was it just the love of the business that brought you guys together?
Hall: Well, he could work, plus we needed a designated driver. (laughs)
Keller: What are your memories of Owen Hart?
Hall: Me and Owen were good friends. When I was working for that company in Germany, my trailer was right next to his trailer. We’d hang out, go to the gym together. Back then, our wives would go jogging together. It was a lot of fun. Anybody who’s ever been around Owen knows he’s crazy. You can’t grow up a Hart and not be crazy. But at the same time, Owen was so talented. I was at the Kemper Arena, I guess it’s been about three years ago now. It was hard for me to work because I felt down. Because that’s where Owen lost his life. We still miss him. But I know Owen’s in Heaven now. I just pray for him and I hope he’s doing great.
